Has anyone tried the Alpha course?

[microbite]

:))

I would say what ever makes you happy, gives you peace of mind and spiritually fulfills you, go with it, just be aware that there are lots of confidence tricksters out there, (not saying all churches/organisations are like this), and some take advantage of people when they are at their most vulnerable and most susceptible, I would head for the doors def if someone started talking about standing orders from your bank for a new church roof etc. though. ;-)

[capt_birdseye]

I once worked with a very religious guy who maintained that he could provide "evidence" that man lived side-by-side with dinosaurs. When prompted about evolution he remarked "I don't believe in all that Monkey rubbish". It made me laugh and despair in equal measures.

[Huggers]

Microbite, have you tried the Quakers? Porridge and Peace.

[James]

LegalEagle, I would advise you not to bother with Alpha. Go to the excellent Darwin exhibition at the Natural History Museum instead. One of the most intelligent, fascinating and informative exhibitions I've ever been to. Makes me happy to be alive - and clearly demonstrates that there is no evidence whatsoever for intelligent design/creationism.

[giggirl]

I did the Alpha course about 8 years ago at Holy Trinity Brompton with Nicky Gumbel himself. It was a very positive experience. I liked the people I met. There?s a lot on this thread about ?exploiting vulnerable people? but that just wasn?t my experience. I found a lot of people asking a lot of questions. At the time I did the course I was stuck in a rut and wanted to shake things up. At the end of the course I had a new perspective on many things but it didn?t turn me into an evangelical Christian, and they didn?t seem to mind.

I'm Catholic by birth (Irish on both sides), but, like so many catholics, I really couldn't stomach the hypocracy. Our local priest was very hardcore. For example, he refused to baptise the babies of parents who didn?t regularly attend mass, but on Sundays he would be sure to remind us that only those baptised could enter the Kingdom of Heaven. At the age of five I can remember trying to fathom this out. And what about all the little Chinese and African babies who had never been baptised or even heard of Jesus? I lay awake at night worrying about them. Seriously. No wonder there are so many ex-catholics.

I don?t belong to any religious group today. Organised religions scare me (probably because of my upbringing). I just don?t? see God in them. I am still asking questions though. People who don't ask questions also scare me.

[Ted Max]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2000/oct/21/weekend7.weekend

Very long pair of articles, eight years old. Still worth a read.

>>

""Tony?" says Nicky. "How was your week?"

"I was talking to a homosexual friend," says Tony, "and he said that ever since he was a child he found himself attracted to other boys. So why does the church think he's committing a sin? Are you going to Hell if you commit a sexual act that is completely normal to you? That seems a bit unfair, doesn't it?" There is a murmur of agreement from the group.

"First of all," says Nicky, "I have many wonderful homosexual friends. There's even an Alpha for gays running in Beverly Hills! Really! I think it's marvellous! But if a paedophile said, 'Ever since I was a child I found myself attracted to children', we wouldn't say that that was normal, would we?" A small gasp. "Now, I am not for a moment comparing homosexuals with paedophiles, but the Bible makes it very clear that sex outside marriage, including homosexual sex, is, unfortunately, a sin." He says he wishes it wasn't so, but the Bible makes it clear that gay people need to be healed.

"Although I strongly advise you not to say the word 'healed' to them," he quickly adds. "They hate that word."

[LegalEagle-ish]

There doesn't seem to be any doubt that there were dinosaurs and evolution - I don't see why the presence of a creator and evolution of what he created need to be mutually exclusive.

Like creating a cake - you mix all the ingredients together and let them evolve into a cake in the oven.

The seven days doesn't need to be literal and even if it is, the bible says that God's time is different to ours, so a day to him could be millenia to humans.

[Jeremy]

To be objective here, it's hard for a christian to "win" when discussing the bible with an atheist.

If they take the bible literally, then they're lunatic who is disregarding scientific fact.

If they take it metaphorically, than they're picking and choosing which bits to believe, which casts the whole book into doubt!

[giggirl]

Ted Max Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2000/oct/21/

> weekend7.weekend

>

> Very long pair of articles, eight years old. Still

> worth a read.

>

> >>

>

I just read The Guardian article. Thanks for posting. The journalist did the course at the same time I did so I probably met him. Actually he's spot on - pretty good description of Alpha at Holy Trinity Brompton. I also didn't get my coffee served by Jonathan Aitken but we had one of the Kray gang in our group - a most charming man I remember.

[LegalEagle-ish]

Nothing is ever 100% certain. You can evaluate the facts available and make as good a determination of the truth as you can - that's about all you can do.

That's why I'm looking to do more about my knowledge in this area and keepingmy mind open, but I always question anything that does not seem to be backed up by facts.

I think immediately dismissing something without assessing the evidence available is the wrong way to go about determining the truth.

[ratty]

Nothing wrong with most christian values imo!

[bignumber5]

I can think of a few dubious ones...

[Jeremy]

LegalEagle-ish Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nothing is ever 100% certain. You can evaluate

> the facts available and make as good a

> determination of the truth as you can - that's

> about all you can do.

>

> That's why I'm looking to do more about my

> knowledge in this area and keepingmy mind open,

> but I always question anything that does not seem

> to be backed up by facts.

>

> I think immediately dismissing something without

> assessing the evidence available is the wrong way

> to go about determining the truth.

I do pretty much agree with you there, actually. But some people look at the same evidence and reach very different conclusions, probably based on what they already believe deep down. Is it really possible to be open minded about these things?

[Huguenot]

Nobody denies the search for truth LE, least of all me.

At Alpha you will be shown a succession of truths that start from the commonsense (Jesus probably lived) to the reasonable (his philosophy was altruistic).

At varying stages over this experience you will be asked to accept ideas that are somewhat less reasonable (he has global leadership qualities in a modern world), but you will make the calculated gamble that a minor transgression (an obvious white lie) is not worth pursuing amongst a welter of overbearingingly admissable 'truths'. You may even be asked to accept that it's a 'metaphor' (water into wine) as a convenient key to your 'unreasonable' door.

Once this door is open, you'll be asked to make progressively more unreasonable admissions. The demand won't be related to your original perceptions, but will be related to your last concession..... 'C'mon, if you've taken off your jeans, you might as well take off your pants'.

The truth you seek is not in pursuing unreasonable justifications through intellectual denial.

[bignumber5]

'C'mon, if you've taken off your jeans, you might as well take off your pants'

Graphic...

[Huguenot]

But intellectually true I feel.... ;-)

[LegalEagle-ish]

I'm quite a stubborn person and it's pretty much impossible to coerce me into doing or believing anything I don't want to so I'm not too worried.

I've been to Seventh Day Adventist bible studies and told them that I wasn't into learning about their prophet, Ellen G White, so if they can't extricate her stuff from their bible teachings, then I don't want to know. It takes a while to get the low down on the Ellen G white stuff, but I am a nosey, curious person so was always digging.

I also did bible studies with Jehova Witnesses for about 6 months and compared what they taught with what was said in my King James Bible and their version. Most of what they taught was true to both bibles, but the some of it was in my opinion rubbish, such as the need for women to wear skirts and dresses because it says in the bible that women should wear womens garb and men should wear men's garb - they didn't have much to say when I pointed out that they all wore dresses back then, so why is it only women are congined to dresses now?

I love learning about the bible because I was brought up an athiest by a mad scientist, communist father and after certain experiences in my life have come to believe that God and Jesus exist. Now I just want to try to get to know them better.

So I don't think I am weak or vulnerable, just very interested in finding out more about who Jesus really was and what he really stood for. To do this I want to try to strip away all the sectarian, manipulative add-ons and find out what was actually written about him from as early as it all happened as possible.

If they try to get me barking like a dog or chatting crap 'in tongues', I'll let you all know forthwith!!

[Marmora Man]

Leagle,

I admire your openess but ...... all of your posts posit that the Bible will provide the evidence if it is studied properly. Poor philosophy and poor theology.

If Jesus existed - and there was, probably, a preacher / teacher / priest at or around 2000 years ago giving lessons, speeches and exhorting his followers to do the right thing in the expectation of salvation - that in itself is not proof of the existence of God or Jesus as the son of God.

I'm an atheist - I cannot prove God doesn't exist but my understanding and knowledge of life, together with a light overview of scientific thought over the centuries, suggests to me that there is no God and certainly that organised religion is a waste of my time and quite probably a force for bad things in general. So my belief that there is no God has some rational basis - on the other hand a belief in God (or any god) depends upon "faith" in the absence of facts - a less rational basis for a belief.

KNowing and understanding religion is a good thing - I spent time in the middle east recently and talking about Islam, Judaism and Christianity with a variety of fellow travellers of all persuasions was interesting as an insight into the way of life in the Levant 2000 years ago. I didn't experience a Damscene conversion tho'.

[LegalEagle-ish]

I already believe in God. I just want to find out more about the original teachings of Jesus.

I'm also interested in the history and content of other religions and wanted to start a course on the quoran on Monday, but was unable to but am lookingh forward to the next one.

It's really strange to me that people have such strong reactions to studying this kind of stuff. I love knowledge of all kinds and this is knowledge that is thought provoking and fits in quite well with my anti-consumer, alternative, simple view of how life might be lived to increase happiness.

The right wing neo-con types seem to me to be so far from what Jesus was teaching, that I am surprised they are even accepted as Christians. What I have discovered so far is that Jesus taught the total opposite of what the neo-cons and their ilk stand for.

[Sue]

LegalEagle-ish Wrote:

>

> I challange any athiest or agnostic to complete

> the Alpha course and not change their thinking.

>

xxxxx

When I first moved to Brighton, in the nineties, I lodged with a Christian couple who were heavily involved with running the local Alpha course.

However they stopped trying to persuade me to attend when they were basically unable to give me satisfactory answers to my very simple questions (such as, how their God of "Love" condemns people to hell for not believing in Jesus. Or, how "Thou shalt not kill" sits with Christians fighting in wars eg WWII, where forgive me if I am wrong, but there were army and navy etc chaplains. And, er, where Christians were killing people.)

My then partner, however, on one of his weekend visits prior to moving down too, did agree to go to an Alpha meeting. They were delighted. Until he started asking searching questions at the meeting, which none of the leaders could answer. They didn't invite him back.

This was years ago, and I am still in touch with the couple concerned, who are still heavily into the church. They are lovely people. But we don't discuss religion any more :)

[indiepanda]

Ted Max Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ""Tony?" says Nicky. "How was your week?"

>

> "I was talking to a homosexual friend," says Tony,

> "and he said that ever since he was a child he

> found himself attracted to other boys. So why does

> the church think he's committing a sin? Are you

> going to Hell if you commit a sexual act that is

> completely normal to you? That seems a bit unfair,

> doesn't it?" There is a murmur of agreement from

> the group.

>

> "First of all," says Nicky, "I have many wonderful

> homosexual friends. There's even an Alpha for gays

> running in Beverly Hills! Really! I think it's

> marvellous! But if a paedophile said, 'Ever since

> I was a child I found myself attracted to

> children', we wouldn't say that that was normal,

> would we?" A small gasp. "Now, I am not for a

> moment comparing homosexuals with paedophiles, but

> the Bible makes it very clear that sex outside

> marriage, including homosexual sex, is,

> unfortunately, a sin." He says he wishes it wasn't

> so, but the Bible makes it clear that gay people

> need to be healed.

>

> "Although I strongly advise you not to say the

> word 'healed' to them," he quickly adds. "They

> hate that word."

I think that sums up why I wouldn't go near the Alpha course very well, I find that so offensive. Much the same as I ended up finding the Catholic religion, having been raised Catholic from a young age. And as for the Jehovah's Witnesses... grew up next to a family of Jehovah's and the children really weren't encouraged to think for themselves... I don't like using words like brainwashing, but I did feel it was inappropriate how young they would be dragging them out knocking on doors with them.

I read Dawkins and one thing he especially objects to is describing a child as being a Catholic etc - saying they aren't old enough to make a choice, and I am certainly with him on that. I am not sure if I believe in god or not, just confident I don't believe in religion.

[PeckhamRose]

"My advice would be to find a religion that allows you to explore philosophical questions without demanding your subordination to the political wills of others."

I think that was Huguenot writing.

My advice would be to not look for any religion in order to do those things.

The Humanists' Philosophical Group has written several pamphlets and books inidividually and collectively, about many subjects along these lines, and educational books too.

[espelli]

My favourite examples of good Old Testament thinking are here: Why can't I own a Canadian?

[indiepanda]

espelli Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> My favourite examples of good Old Testament

> thinking are here: Why can't I own a Canadian?

Lol, I've read that one before, but it still makes me chuckle evey time.

[david_carnell]

And the West Wing footage at the end is a sure-fire classic scene.