Bakerloo line extension consultation open

[MissKing]

The Urbanite Wrote:

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> Peckham Rye already has rail links going in every

> direction, north, east, south and west. Direct

> trains to London Bridge, Victoria, the East London

> Line, several stations across in or on the City's

> doorstep and St Pancras International, plus

> significant places in the South of London such as

> Clapham Junction, Croydon, Lewisham and Bromley.

> Very few places are so well connected. I think

> it'd be very difficult to argue that it needs a

> Tube station more than the Old Kent Road.

Peckham Rye may have a lot of different connections, but they are not that regular. Trains from St Pancras are only 2ph - few extra at rush hour. Camberwell has nothing - I got the bus from Elephant to Camberwell last night and it took 25 minutes! Would take about 2 minutes on the tube.

[FredCasa]

One important argument in favour of the Camberwell/Peckham Rye route is the King's College Hospital complex (really two hospitals). This badly needs a tube line.

[Zebedee Tring]

Since the Camberwell/Peckham route has already been mooted for several (80 years in the case of Camberwell), it would make a lot of sense for this route to be chosen now. Coupled with this argument, the points made above by FredCasa and MissKing are also persuasive ones. The hospital traffic alone justifies a new tube line.

[stephen509]

I've voted for the Hayes line extension.

[Otta]

I don't know why people are talking as though Camberwell is under served by public transport. It has loads of buses, Denmark Hill and Loughborough Junction stations within a few minutes walk. It's hardly remote.

[MissKing]

The good thing about a public consultation is that we can all contribute our differing opinions to the debate! :)

[Earl Aelfheah]

....and have them ignored.

[Jeremy]

There are two stations within walking distance of Camberwell Green, but if you're further north (round Albany Rd, for example), you're a long way from the nearest station.

Buses don't count because they're crap.

[Earl Aelfheah]

... sorry, that was very negative. I just suspect that if there isn't a private developer getting a huge public subsidy then Boris is likely to think the whole thing pointless - i.e. it's The Old Kent Road Quater.

[MissKing]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/no-government-handout-needed-for-3bn-bakerloo-line-extension-insists-city-hall-9766444.html

There is a strong economic case to use an extension to spur regeneration in the kent road area- which it is why its even more important to take part in the consultation. I agree with James Barbour - there's no point extend all the way to Bromley. If there is extra money it should be used to build two branch lines.

[SLad]

Thanks for the OP who drew attention to this issue. I've completed the consultation (first time for everything). I completely agree with James et al on the wasted opportunity extending the line to Bromley would represent: those in Bromley have 10/15 min access to Victoria via the excellent quick overground lines there plus regular stopping services into stations in between, including Beckenham to access the tram. You do wonder how the tube would compete in those circumstances and whether Bromley residents would even want to lose some of their overground provision in favour of the Tube (as appears to be the price for the residents of the proposed line beyond Lewisham).

I also agree that it would be far more sensible to extend the tube to the SE/SW borders given the dearth of provision unless you live in Clapham or Brixton. Public transport is already bursting at the seams during rush hour in Herne Hill, Tulse Hill and Streatham with very little impact from major road transport redevelopments which were supposed to reduce the pressure on the system. Those of us on this side of the Village really, really need some other ways to get around and a line into Camberwell (and potentially beyond) would be a massive help.

If you feel the same way or similar, please do respond to the consultation because you just never know what might happen...

[Sweptwind]

Given the emphasis in the consultation documents on the role of developer contributions to fund the project, is anyone able to explain what opportunities exist on the Camberwell route? It's a given that Old Kent Road can satisfy this requirement, but I've not heard of similar potential via Camberwell.

[njc97]

The gain from extending to Bromley is to allow Bromleyites to change at Lewisham for DLR to Canary Wharf: going to Victoria and then getting across is a pain.

OKR route has too much development potential to not get the nod (unless whole thing gets cancelled) - but I do agree with James B that a route through Camberwell and out would make more sense than a 2nd route to Lewisham (notwithstanding that this has potential to be more useful for me in Nunhead)

[cle]

The precedent is sadly the ludicrous Northern line extension to Battersea Power Station, being paid for my the American Embassy, Malaysian tycoons etc etc. Clearly that eextension could have run from Kennington/Oval down to Camberwell or Brixton but now that's squandered.

I'm not sure what OKR plans there are, but I believe there are some. I don't know who'd want to live there in terms of fancy apartments, it's nowhere near the Thames which seems to be the pacifier for south of the river investors.

And equally, there is 'Elephant Park' and a ton of potential crappy estates through Walworth and Camberwell which could be rebuilt. Could they do a Heygate (with less corruption) on the Aylesbury?

And Camberwell itself has lots of development, around Kings/Maudsley and the old pool hall etc... but doesn't seem on their radar.

Maybe it could be a short spur off the main OKR which probably is better if you're heading to Hayes. But then 27 trains per hour need to be divvied up, and the Beckenham Junction element detracts 6 already.

[Earl Aelfheah]

cle Wrote:

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> The precedent is sadly the ludicrous Northern line

> extension to Battersea Power Station, being paid

> for my the American Embassy, Malaysian tycoons etc

> etc. Clearly that eextension could have run from

> Kennington/Oval down to Camberwell or Brixton but

> now that's squandered.

Agree, the northern line extension is ridiculous.

The idea that developers subsidise these transport projects is interesting. It seems to me that it's the other way round (public finances subsidising private developments).

[Medley]

That's because it is. Memory says it's only about a quarter of the costs of the Northern line extension that aren't coming from public funds.

[Michael Palaeologus]

I have completed it, supporting the Walworth Road route and Lewisham link.

My rationale is that we are unlikely to get two routes and a push for that would just extend the time taken to make a decision (but see my comments about the OKR tram option below)

Walworth Rd is more congested than OKR, needs investment and has a large existing population that would make use of the service to access jobs in central London. Peckham is a transport hub and linking the Bakerloo line to the Overground and National Rail services further South makes sense in reducing congestion at the main stations in Town. Camberwell needs a fixed rail transport link for its economic and social development.

The Lewisham link would allow the tram network to be more robustly linked to the rest of the TfL network such as the DLR and other rail systems.

There was a request for other ideas and I suggested that the Camden - Peckham tram line be revisited. Trams are cheaper to install than underground lines, it would serve the OKR and would further add to the Peckham transport hub using existing roads and land. The tram could effectively replace some bus routes and use park land without detracting from the sport and leisure usage.

[ClaphamMum]

I hope they do both! The Old Kent road could really do with the regeneration - although places like Stockwell don't seemed to have been made any prettier despite having a tube station!

[Earl Aelfheah]

Medley Wrote:

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> That's because it is. Memory says it's only about

> a quarter of the costs of the Northern line

> extension that aren't coming from public funds.

I imagine significantly more than a quarter of the value of the private housing development comes from the public investment in new infrastructure to serve it. So it really depends how you want to look at it. I would argue that as taxpayers contribute to not just the cost of infrastructure construction, but it's ongoing running costs, to have that money put towards an extension which serves no existing community, but rather an area of proposed investment properties - it looks very much like a subsidy for the developers.

[Earl Aelfheah]

....or to put it another way - would we otherwise use public funds to extend the northern line to a virtually derelict area? If the answer is no, then how has a private developer 'subsidised' an otherwise unwanted extension? It's a public subsidy to a private development.

[Dun]

Thanks for the posting, have filled in the form supporting the Camberwell - Peckham extion.

Said that there is already terrible congestion on both the Walworth & Camberwell New Roads so buses are a mess during rush hour and the the trains and Overground are also over-crowded.

Just looking at how the Overground Line has immediately become so packed shows the huge need for better transportation links.

Have also said that do not support extending past Lewisham as if it goes into Bromley/Hayes the carriages just get packed with commuters leaving zone 2 residents stuck with existing overcrowded carriages.

Also said that TFL can not be only guided by prospects of developers funding future works as this skews things badly, leaving developed areas even more neglected.

In further suggestions said that extending Victoria Line from Brixton to Herne Hill/Camberwell/or Denmark Hill would be good.

[craigyboy71]

Some good news on the London Overground front - there will be an additional carriage from 14th December. I'm sure I'll still be fighting for a seat every morning however!

Dun Wrote:

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> Thanks for the posting, have filled in the form

> supporting the Camberwell - Peckham extion.

> Said that there is already terrible congestion on

> both the Walworth & Camberwell New Roads so buses

> are a mess during rush hour and the the trains and

> Overground are also over-crowded.

> Just looking at how the Overground Line has

> immediately become so packed shows the huge need

> for better transportation links.

> Have also said that do not support extending past

> Lewisham as if it goes into Bromley/Hayes the

> carriages just get packed with commuters leaving

> zone 2 residents stuck with existing overcrowded

> carriages.

> Also said that TFL can not be only guided by

> prospects of developers funding future works as

> this skews things badly, leaving developed areas

> even more neglected.

> In further suggestions said that extending

> Victoria Line from Brixton to Herne

> Hill/Camberwell/or Denmark Hill would be good.

[holloway]

I gladly filled in the questionnaire in support of an extension via Camberwell and I've now just received a follow up email requesting me to fill in the answers to 3 further questions; what is my email address, my post code and my name??

surely they obviously have my email address... and as for name and post code, just wondering why they want those? careful market research or me being paranoid?

[Siduhe]

I got the same. The cynic in me says so that they can weight/discount the views of those who live a bit further away from the Old Kent Road... ;-)

[Otta]

I got it too. Haven't bothered yet.