Crown and Greyhound (Dog)

[DadOf4]

Greg - thanks for engaging here - its a really positive sign

I wish you the best of luck in turning the pub around

Would love to go back to using it regularly - will give it another few months to let you work your magic first

[DaveR]

The problem with M&B pubs is that all the key decisions are made centrally by people who don't work in their pubs. This is a quote from the M&B website:

"Every year, we spend over ?1 billion across eleven key categories including food, drink, technology and corporate facilities. Over the next few years we expect some of our brands to more than double in size, so we want to develop long-term relationships with fewer but bigger players."

So how much control does the pub have over the food and drink that its customers get? Close to zero, it would seem. What's the incentive for really good people to want to work in their pubs? Similarly close to zero, you would think.

NB - this is what the M&B website says about its "Castle" pubs, of which the Dog is one:

"If you like your pint served with real personality, pull up a chair in one of our eclectic urban pubs. Each is decidedly individual, with a character to suit its community and an independence that attracts regulars as diverse and discerning as the beers on tap."

Two other pubs in the Castle stable are The Spaniards in Hampstead and the White Horse in Parsons Green (the Sloaney Pony) - both famous old pubs. This is a quote from the food section of the Spaniards' website:

"There?s nothing quite like a juicy, slow-cooked, gravy-drenched roast on a Sunday afternoon, or a favourite pub classic such as sustainably caught cod and chips. Whether you fancy a quick bite to eat or a traditional Sunday roast, here at The Spaniards Inn there is something for everyone. We serve delicious, freshly prepared meals, changing our menu daily to make sure you?re getting the freshest, seasonal ingredients."

And from the White Horse website:

"There?s nothing quite like a juicy, slow-cooked, gravy-drenched roast on a Sunday afternoon, or a favourite pub classic such as sustainably caught cod and chips. Whether you fancy a quick bite to eat or a traditional Sunday roast, here at The White Horse there is something for everyone. We serve delicious, freshly prepared meals, changing our menu daily to make sure you?re getting the freshest, seasonal ingredients."

The Dog isn't a pub - it's one unit in a national mass catering operation. Say it ain't so, Greg?

[JohnL]

DaveR Wrote:

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> Two other pubs in the Castle stable are The

> Spaniards in Hampstead and the White Horse in

> Parsons Green (the Sloaney Pony) - both famous old

> pubs. This is a quote from the food section of

> the Spaniards' website:

>

> "There?s nothing quite like a juicy, slow-cooked,

> gravy-drenched roast on a Sunday afternoon, or a

> favourite pub classic such as sustainably caught

> cod and chips. Whether you fancy a quick bite to

> eat or a traditional Sunday roast, here at The

> Spaniards Inn there is something for everyone. We

> serve delicious, freshly prepared meals, changing

> our menu daily to make sure you?re getting the

> freshest, seasonal ingredients."

>

> And from the White Horse website:

>

> "There?s nothing quite like a juicy, slow-cooked,

> gravy-drenched roast on a Sunday afternoon, or a

> favourite pub classic such as sustainably caught

> cod and chips. Whether you fancy a quick bite to

> eat or a traditional Sunday roast, here at The

> White Horse there is something for everyone. We

> serve delicious, freshly prepared meals, changing

> our menu daily to make sure you?re getting the

> freshest, seasonal ingredients."

>

> The Dog isn't a pub - it's one unit in a national

> mass catering operation. Say it ain't so, Greg?

The "Apple" of pub companies :)

[Mick Mac]

SebsC Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There was an interview with him back in April...

>

> http://dulwichonview.org.uk/2017/04/07/its-the-dog

> s-life/

>

Hi Greg - I also want to wish you luck, but what happened to "Brian Gallagher and Jack Hayball" mentioned in this aricle? are they also still involved?

[Abe_froeman]

I guess they are on site responsible for one pub and greg as "area manager" sits above them responsible for several m and b pubs.

On the chain pub post above i actually think m and b have got it right with their castle brand. Generally in other castle pubs I have found the food good and the drinks selection varied enough.

Ok the sunday roast is the same in all of them but so it is in all the antic pubs. If you're running more than one pub of course your suppliers are the same for all of them. Even gordon ramsay served exactly the same food cooked in the same kitchen across his pub chain.

[DadOf4]

There are good chains and there are bad chains

Equally, there are good independents and bad independents

The Half Moon - a really well run pub is a fullers pub. It has its problems but, overall, is a good experience

The Victoria in Peckham is run by the Met Pub Company (ultimately part of Green Kings empire) - again, a really nice pub across the board

As I said in my orginal post, I visited both of these in their opening weeks and found REALLY well trained staff, a warm welcome and, ultimately, a good experience

I love the idea of any independent businesses - and will support them where I can - but chain doesn't necessarily mean its going to be bad

[Mick Mac]

yes, and in fact it should be that chain would logically mean good, being reflective of a successful and popular product being expanded out/quality of the brand meaning something to customers, knowing what to expect etc

Of course, some chains provide something basic, and not to the standards expected in all localities, of can be poorly managed, or struggle to retain staff etc

But the Half Moon looks like a fantastic set up - I have only had a beer there, but Fullers have invested a lot of money and it looks great, inside and out, the Dog will be compared to it, and some of the Dog's prior catchment will now have a choice of pubs.

[malumbu]

Wow, hadn't realised that M&B owned so many brands, including some pretty awful ones from my view. But then strangely enough Nicholsons, which seem to have better pubs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchells_%26_Butlers

Anyway, nobody has picked up on my point on the Beer Orders, and that they spawned the pub chain, and probably did Brake Brothers a lot of good, and that the pub chains are no better than the big brewers who was generally despised.

The fall and diversification of our (then) big brewers led to the super companies hovering up all the brands such as Interbrew/Inbev and also the large regionals in particular my most loathed, Greene King. Based on their beer and closing down of other breweries.

[Mick Mac]

Poor results and dismissal of CEO[edit]

In September 2015, Mitchells & Butlers issued a profits warning and dismissed CEO Alistair Darby. He was replaced by Phil Urban, who joined as COO in January from Grosvenor Casinos and previously ran Whitbread?s pub restaurants division.[25]

[DaveR]

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying chain = bad, but making two (I hope) slightly subtler points.

The first is the apparent inconsistency between M&B's language when describing Castle pubs - "eclectic", "individual", "independent" - and both their procurement policies and the standardised, straight from head office, deathless wording used on their "individual" pub websites. "Gravy-drenched roast" - really?

The second is that IMHO big pub chains will generally struggle to hire and retain really good people, especially managers and chefs, who are likely to want more control over their own output than the centralised approach will allow.

And while this is true for chains that grew organically:

"in fact it should be that chain would logically mean good, being reflective of a successful and popular product being expanded out/quality of the brand meaning something to customers, knowing what to expect etc"

that's not how any of the big pub chains came into being.

I'd love the Dog to be a really great pub, but the odds are against it. I'd settle for it being a decent pub, so let's hope it can make it that far.

[tarafitness]

The Phoenix in Denmark Hill, is a good example of an M&B pub done well. My interpretation of 'well', anyway.

It's just a little too far away for it to be our local, but we've visited many times for lunch (if you join their newsletter, they often have great food deals on), and always found the food to be lovely, the staff very friendly and helpful, the decor really appealing, and the place clean and well maintained.

This is in contrast to its cousin down the road - The Plough which seems to be of a much lower standard all round - despite having an identical website ;-)

[malumbu]

tarafitness - I think that we are on different planets. The Phoenix and Firkin was the best pub in London when I turned up in these parts. The Great David Bruce had saved it from the ashes, it brewed its own beer, it had excessive amounts of character.

Once Brucie had sold it to Allied then it was all down hill from my view. You are probably coming at it from a younger person's eyes with different experiences. But if I could put you in a time machine and take you back 20 years you may well be in agreement.

[Sue]

malumbu Wrote:

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> tarafitness - I think that we are on different

> planets. The Phoenix and Firkin was the best pub

> in London when I turned up in these parts. The

> Great David Bruce had saved it from the ashes, it

> brewed its own beer, it had excessive amounts of

> character.

>

Blast from the past.

What happened to the firkin pubs??

:(

[rendelharris]

Punch Taverns bought them up, then I think sold them - or some of them - to someone else, they closed down the brewing side, which was its USP, ruined them, then they all got rebranded under other names. Vandalism. Happy days of youth in the Friesian (sp?) and the Faraday in Clapham as well as the Phoenix - some of the best beer I've ever had in London.

[Sue]

:(

Yeh I remember the very first one, name escapes me though .....

[rendelharris]

Was it the Goose and... in Borough? That's the first one I remember, though I think several opened all around the same time.

[malumbu]

When I used to visit there were five - the first one I went to was the Ferret and Firkin in the Baloon up the Creek. We then used to meet our nurse friends in the Fox and Firkin in Lewisham for a sing song on a Saturday night. Then the piece de la resistance, the Pheonix, oh joy. Went wrong when they stopped being a brew pub chain and then the Pheonix became a O'neils or O'reillys or some other stupid plastic Irish pub. It had earlier peaked when we did all 18 in one day circa 1993 for a stag do, on public transport, with all 18 still brewing.

The Goose was the first, is still a pub but you wouldn't notice it in a back street.

It's like kids saying "oh I wish I was your generation with all those great bands". Substitute great bands for great pubs.

Anyway, happy days. It's not all bad I suppose and pubs have to generate a living.

[NewWave]

can I just say that I think its a really positive sign that the area manager has posted on this forum.

Its easy for big companies to bury their head in the sand over criticism.

Respect for taking it on board and I will definately re-visit.

And if the menu tempts me I may even eat there.

[Sue]

rendelharris Wrote:

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> Was it the Goose and... in Borough? That's the

> first one I remember, though I think several

> opened all around the same time.

According to Wikipedia yes it was the Goose in Borough, how weird.

I remember something else somewhere else, but I can't remember what :))

[malumbu]

The Goose was the first. No need for Wikipedia. The Fuselier and Firkin maybe the only one of the original five that I did not visit at the time. Or maybe the Frog at Paddington. Can't remember everything! I've got a beer mat somewhere with the five on.

This is a good link not only about the Firkin but how pubs have been furked up by pub chains, very relevant.

http://www.goodbeergoodpubs.co.uk/articles/what-happened-to-the-firkin-pubs/

[Mick Mac]

The Freisian and Firkin in Clapham Old Town was a great bar in the early/mid-1990s

They are all here http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ccaajpa/pubs-firkin.html

[DulwichFox]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> :(

>

> Yeh I remember the very first one, name escapes me

> though .....

I thought it was The Fox and Firkin Lewisham.. but may of been the Goose.

Fox

[rendelharris]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Freisian and Firkin in Clapham Old Town was a

> great bar in the early/mid-1990s

Ah, happy days - and if it was too full (it was justifiably popular) the Prince of Wales just across the road was good too - is it (PoW) still there? Haven't been in Clapham Old Town for years.

[cella]

It was the Fox & Firkin in Lewisham near Ladywell - remember going in the first week!

[red devil]

300...:)