The Times article today (20/09/14) on The Charter and Jags?

[dulwichfamily]

Janice Turner article in The Times today

Sounds to me like it's about The Charter and Jags school?

'Public schools must learn the meaning of charity'

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4212639.ece

[dulwichfamily]

Quick question, did JAGS buy those sports fields etc off Charter school originally, or is that not true?

I am being an armchair detective today!

[Miacis]

Unfortunately the full article is subscription only. What's the gist?

[dulwichfamily]

The short summary you get w/out subscription gives the gist.

It's a discussion about public school generally, not really new ground, but uses her local school dynamics as an example of how a charity (I think public schools have charitable status) isn't behaving in a charitable way when it comes to their sports facilities.

So if they are a business, should they not pay VAT?

[Miacis]

Thanks. Yes Jags is a charity as are Alleyns etc. I think many indep schools are. Seems odd but I believe the requirements to maintain charitable status were changed a while ago for schools which meant that loaning sports facilities etc to local community was no longer required. Shame as so many local schools and their pupils could really benefit from more sharing.

[dulwichfamily]

Yes, agree

I don't think she's suggesting what they're doing is illegal

Just feels wrong maybe

In the same way certain firms don't pay tax in the uk. It isn't illegal, but leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

[stephent]

JAGS has been on that site for 120 years (and in Dulwich for 100 years before that), so unlikely they bought the land from them...

In terms of private schools doing more within the community I'd actually say that the Dulwich schools are amongst the best of any in terms of building links and sharing facilities (both with other schools and with the wider community - eg the new Music Hall JAGS are trying to get built)

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's ridiculous that independent schools are given charitable status in my opinion. I really can't see any justification for it.

[Miacis]

They may share a small amount. But that seems a token to me. Once a year my dd's primary school were allowed to use part of alleyn's field. I really think that if they are to maintain charitable status it needs to be sharing on a regular basis. Perhaps Stephent knows more but better than many doesn't mean good enough.

Remember having charitable status means they are subsidised through tax breaks.

[keyhole]

Jags have not always owned all the Greendale fields,,,only in past 12 years!!jags & Alleyns have swimming pools and theatre,,Charter cannot walk on their grass never mind use facilities,I am very disappointed such greed is so blatant..In this day & age and so close together,this should never happen,shame on those in charge,very un sportsman like.

[dulwichfamily]

How did jags acquire the greendale fields keyhole - do you know?

And did the council bid for them?

I find it depressing that a large school such as Charter has seemingly limited access to space and facilities

Water water everywhere...

[Nigello]

It shouldn't be one or the other: no charitable status and offer the fields and (some) other facilities for community use.

[keyhole]

I believe it was after they closed down William Penn ,There were no plans for another school ,,,the bottom part of their fields used to be used by Bessemer Grange,to take all the space when no one was using it or needing it,,ie Charter wasn't there yet,it is so sad that they charge local infant & secondary schools on the doorstep to use the swimming pools and sports facilities,,,and to stamp the foot of we are more important than you,they use Charter schools entrance gate as there car park entrance,I find it sickening and truly atrocious community cohesion ...I feel for The Charter kids,really unfair.

[amydown]

Given the shortage of state school places, I think the more they can do to encourage quality education through the private sector, the better.

People who then end up sending their kids to private school are, at the same time, relieving pressure on the state school. As thee parents don't get any tax deduction for education expenses coming out of their net pay, the state doesn't lose out and it provides more space in the state system.

If private schools were to lose charitable status and therefore tax paying, for instance, the cost would get passed onto parents. That would have a huge knock on impact on already-stretched state system capacity.

[keyhole]

When they built 5 a side astro pitches,right behind Charter,who gave permission,they should have insisted The Charter got at least this space!greedy and selfish,it's about time something was done!

[dulwichfamily]

In the article, janice was discussing a specific request to **** school.

But this request was refused.

I wonder whose decision this was?

Who gets to make these decisions internally at **** and who at ####### school made the proposal? Is it public knowledge?

Perhaps parents of kids at the state school can start a petition.

I have no affiliation to either. Currently just observing.

[Otta]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's ridiculous that independent schools are given

> charitable status in my opinion. I really can't

> see any justification for it.

What rahrahrah said.

[dulwichfamily]

And what janice turner is saying. It is the basis of her article in The Times of all papers...

[Mick Mac]

Miacis Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Remember having charitable status means they are

> subsidised through tax breaks.

They are funded through parental schools fees. Where's the tax break there?

Dulwich schools were originally set up by an Edward Alleyn charitable gift.

They generally aren't supposed to make a profit, so there is no tax to pay.

Charitable donations from benefactors may receive a tax credit but that's it I'd imagine on the charitable side.

[Penguin68]

I believe charities are also exempt from VAT, although they would be obliged to pay NI contributions. Capital gains (from property disposal) are I think tax exempt, and I'm not sure they'd have to pay stamp duty on property acquisitions. And I think that they can make trading profits, as long as these are earmarked for future investment. Happy to stand corrected on any of this. Where they raise funds (through donations rather than fees) these gain additional funds to take into account tax paid, where donations have been made from taxed income.

There is a fiscal argument that private education is of (some, not necessarily matched) benefit in that otherwise the public purse would have to pay additionally the costs of those being educated privately - and of course those paying for private education in addition also continue to pay rates and taxes to cover the costs of state education, without themselves benefitting from this (but then so do those without children at all).

[Mick Mac]

All sounds about right.

At the end of the day its the fact that they are not profit making that is the relevant driver for the charitable status and perhaps the historical point that many were formed from charitable gifts before state schools existed.

[mikeb]

Sounds like VAT exemption could be reasonably material

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/CHARITIES/vat/intro.htm

I think the trading profits would probably mean taxable profits, albeit there would be some future tax relief on the investments they make with those profits

Not sure I would pay much heed to the historical point that these were charitable gifts - Alleyn's original gift predates the Civil War ...

[cazza]

I would love schools to share more of their facilities. Both state and private. Primary and secondary. The sharing economy is growing with Airbnb, Uber, Lyft, EatWith etc? The sports fields of schools seem an area ripe for this. Not sure how the private schools would see it as a economic benefit to themselves unless the state schools had the funds to pay for the usage?. Maybe their charitable status could/should be taken away if they didn?t learn how to share.

My daughter uses Alleyns sports field once a year for her state school?s sports day. I would happily pay a sports sub for her to do more sport ? if she could run around in a field more. I know this isn?t an option every parent can afford. Maybe something the PTAs could fund raise for?

This is an article about Thomson House in Richmond a new free school ? that have access to the Harrodian School?s sports grounds as well as their gifted and talented programme.

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/local/10703933.New_free_school_in_Mortlake_opens/

[LondonMix]

Agree

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All sounds about right.

>

> At the end of the day its the fact that they are

> not profit making that is the relevant driver for

> the charitable status and perhaps the historical

> point that many were formed from charitable gifts

> before state schools existed.

[stephent]

In the past this used to be the case, but these days a school can't get away with that - they have to prove their charitable status. Looking at this in terms of sharing sports fields is an extremely narrow view, as there are various ways schools can (and do) contribute...

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All sounds about right.

>

> At the end of the day its the fact that they are

> not profit making that is the relevant driver for

> the charitable status and perhaps the historical

> point that many were formed from charitable gifts

> before state schools existed.