Old sign enquiry in East Dulwich

[Louisa]

Bloody hell, preserving road signs? Whatever next? Shall we preserve any traditional ED'er (pre 1997) as I hear they are a dying breed too ;-)

Louisa.

[Kingsbury David]

Huguenot Wrote:

" but if

> they're occupying key signposting areas, then they

> need to replaced with effective signage! Stick the

> old ones up somewhere else where they don't need

> to work ;-)"

No argument there as I said, but I've just been going through the files and found a number which have been removed (in perfect condition) were not replaced at all. Surely it's better to leave a bit of history around which does have a function and costs nothing besides a coat of paint every few decades than just pull them out like weeds?

[lozzyloz]

KD why not forget the old signs and start photographing the new ones. You'll have at least a 50 year head start and a good opportunity to build a comprehensive library before they get replaced by new fangled LED lit, solar powered IR activated ones being planned.

[Judge]

KD - noticed one of the old signs (a bit worse for wear) at the bottom of Court Lane (near the junction with Calton Avenue/DUlwich Village) on the way into work this morning

[LostThePlot]

While there may be some cynical comments about KD's project being kicked about, let's not forget we all like to look at photos of the local as it was earlier in the last century, you only have to look at the threads on here to see that.

Society, and the fabric of it is changing constantly. It's this sort of "Mundane" documentary photography that will be fascinating to future generations.

All power to you KD

[Kingsbury David]

Thanks everyone. I have found a percentage of photos I've taken of areas is different each year and marked the ones where they have. It's amazing how things do change and I was started off in 2002 by a book Golders Green now and then doing that very thing.

I didn't know the new signs were going to be like the 'Slow down 30 mph' ones, ie virtual, so will be able to change by adding new places or removing right turns etc whenever the routes become different. I have a pretty comprehensive collection of current signs already which was what made me spot a few old ones and then run around doing them all once I saw one had disappeared months later.

I just received a reply from TfL saying they were committed to preserving old signs as well, I said that's interesting as three had gone I knew of in the last week. I'll be interested to see the response, if any.

Judge, that's a great find. It takes me ages to get southeast of the river and then can only be done weekends when there's no congestion charge. I used to go to places like Greenwich and Blackheath a lot before that and had to stop as soon as it came in. If anyone can take a photo of it now as local and post it in the thread then at least it'll be recorded. When I came down last week I had a few on my list (half gone as it turned out) and you can understand driving over 20 miles for one sign becomes less economical for the stragglers. There is/was a set in Bexleyheath and one in Woolwich as well I can post details of if anyone is around there and wants to see them. Grove Park had a lot as well and someone recorded the removal in photos, which was very sad to see especially as one was still looking like new.

[Kingsbury David]

I hate double replying but I have sources all over London and continual updates. Firstly this appears to be the sign in Lordship Lane, present in October Lordship Lane. Secondly I have been told the cluster of signs extends to the borough of Lewisham, with many more around Forest Hill and Sydenham. This is only slightly less foreign to me than Baffin Island, and only a little easier to reach (it's not the distance, it's the journey) but if anyone can provide locations once I have a few I should return and catch the two in Dulwich I missed on the way. If they're still there.

Interest is gradually being generated and am now involved with the Enfield Society as it has the most signs in London by a long way and they are now being removed very quickly unless we can persuade them otherwise.

[SimonM]

That's not Lordship Lane. That's coming up Kirkdale out of Sydenham I think

[Kingsbury David]

Thanks Simon, I asked the photographer as well but no reply yet. I'll add that tothe list now, I'm not at all familiar south of the river that way.

[woofmarkthedog]

I'm really lovin them yellow and black signs David you should do a book ..seriously...it's hip ..it's nerdy but we would buy it...I will look out for these ........I'm always on the road...keep up the good work ..yeah and there is one up the palace way...will check it out...

Wooof grrrrrrr

[Kingsbury David]

woofmarkthedog Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm really lovin them yellow and black signs David

> you should do a book ..seriously...it's hip ..it's

> nerdy but we would buy it...I will look out for

> these ........I'm always on the road...keep up the

> good work ..yeah and there is one up the palace

> way...will check it out...

>

> Wooof grrrrrrr

Thanks Woof, already done, and edition 1 arrived today. It costs an arm and a leg but I always sell them at cost price, and can post them anywhere in the UK on receipt of a cheque. The current one is going to be about ?30 though especially as I just added a few pages (yes, found some more signs!). It's hardback, glossy paper and pretty impressive. As it should be at that price...

I have used an A-Z map and coloured in the roads I've checked, and today was the first time I went on a blind search and found one only a couple of miles into the journey, and found one by chance yesterday on a road I thought I knew well. There are clearly far more than I thought and certainly not all already recorded online, even in London.

Let's keep our fingers crossed Southwark take some notice as Kingston have now fully restored two lovely yellow ones in Surbiton so can be done.

How could anyone want to change this one? Most I know like this one have not even been changed, they just take them away suddenly and that's it, including the one at the end of my road before I knew its value.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3426/3190989485_dc87da6227_m.jpg

[woofmarkthedog]

Grrrrrr

Gimme gimme I want that book, how does a dog like me get one, the sign to leatherhead is a beauty , a graphic and physical masterpiece it couldn't say more with less...I also love the waspish colours warning yellow ,black and white colour scheme.

Woof grrrrr

[cate]

Kingsbury David, are you sending your book to Robert Elms on BBC London? He would love it. He had someone on talking about old signage on buildings a few months back.

[Kingsbury David]

Thanks cate, all contacts gratefully received. I am calling a specialist publisher and the library who have one other of mine already, but that is certainly one I didn't know of. Now if I'd done this ten or twenty years ago can you imagine the hundreds that would be saved for posterity? I was lucky to get so many now considering though. Any book requests just send me a pm, dogs and humans.

[Kingsbury David]

Thanks to this forum and a couple of other people I have now just found this collection today to add to the other two I got last time.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3257/3225243953_1be08c0d61_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3379/3226099224_5a2ba8815d_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3456/3226048016_589c1f566b_m.jpg

Kirkdale, Court Lane, Sydenham Road,

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3344/3226047410_a0cc028daa_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3463/3226047064_56aa957532_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3255/3225183817_d3aa0a4aef_m.jpg

Sydenham Road, Crystal Palace Parade, Malpas Road, Brockley Cross

Sharp eyes will notice something rather sad here. Court Lane is the only one in LB Southwark. I saw four shells today, Lordship Lane on both sides and a couple of others as for whatever reason Southwark have decided from November to rip them all out. I think it's wrecked the atmosphere of the Village and it wouldn't kill them to wipe the moss of the last one, which I did on another recently and took me all of two minutes. Shame on them for behaving no differently from the crooks who steal them for scrap.

My research also took me to the Department for Transport site which preserves fingerposts by law and requires repainting every five years. Some are listed and means it's only a small diversion to include these as well. My campaign continues and have a proposal at a council meeting on Tuesday which regardless of the result will show the seriousness residents associations take this issue.

[Kingsbury David]

Credit and apologies where due, I just got a reply from Southwark who say the three signs removed in Lordship Lane (two by the roundabout and one at the south end) are not their responsibility but TfL. I didn't realise they covered more than major roads but now I do. Here is a quote from an earlier reply to a similar message from TfL:

I realise how important it is to preserve those parts of our capital's history that distinguish it from so many other cities.

Please let me assure you that where possible we will always try to preserve historical street furniture on the Transport for London Road Network. We would only remove it should it be damaged and need replacing.

If anyone else would like to add their support for them to stop while the ones in Court Lane and Grove Road are still there (as far as I know, they are moving very fast) you can email Gemma Jacob on [email protected]

[cate]

Kingsbury David,

did you contact the Robert Elms programme on BBC London?

[Kingsbury David]

Yes I did, and they just said they wanted one of my books so I sent them the website. I don't know if they've bought one but they are clearly interested. Let's hope as any media coverage will help my cause a thousandfold.

[cate]

David, you need to send them/take in one of the books. They are in Marylebone High Street. A radio/TV programme would expect a review copy to be given to them. That way if they interview you you are getting publicity. They probably thought it a bit odd that you only referred them to the website. BBC Local Radio has very low budgets and they would be inundated with people hoping to publicise their books.

[Kingsbury David]

Good point, they did ask where they could get hold of one but clearly went straight over my head. They cost me ?30 you know!

[cate]

You can always ask for it back...........did you publish it yourself? If you didn't then the publishing company should send them one.

[Kingsbury David]

I publish all my books with photobox and the price has crept up from ?25 to ?30 since I started, and have already given away a few promotion copies of others, and of course the BBC is a very important customer. I am packing my spare copy now and having it taken there tomorrow or saturday, good thing you pointed it out.

Meanwhile I have informed TfL that despite their policy to look after old signs in situ it was them who removed the Dulwich four (very much like a miscarriage of justice to me isn't it!) so what the heck are they up to? Actually I explained that the sensible thing to do following their stated policy is to keep and repaint the remaining signs and if possible put the others back if they still have them. If this can be done once then who knows what they will do elsewhere. Only one result is needed here for victory as it will mean I will still be able to revisit my childhood as will everyone else in London over 40 or so.

I've learnt a heck of a lot from this, as I had to study all the legal material and arm myself with the facts required in the face of opposition. The fact I am legally qualified as are my parents helped of course. It's one thing persuading a council to do anything, but if they try and claim illegality you are stumped unless you know they're wrong.

I literally now feel like I'm 8 or so again when I see an old sign as it takes me back 40 years to when that's all there was around. And when I'm in an unfamiliar area and need directions I'd never have noticed whether they were old or new as far as being able to read them is concerned. They all do the same job and it's just the new ones are better at higher speeds which is fine. But up to 30 it really makes no difference to legibility at all.

[dc]

Kingsbury David Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I literally now feel like I'm 8 or so again when I see an old sign

Really - literally? Hmmmm. Bah Humbug.

Are you really sure that TfL physically removed the signs? Much that I'd like to have an excuse to blame Boris the Bogey Man I understand that most Tfl work is contracted to the boroughs and I'm sure that they don't always have to blindly follow orders.

[Kingsbury David]

It's called email tennis dc (by the way I had a very happy childhood as I grew up in the best decade in history in a very nice area so 1968 is a year dear to my heart). First TfL tell you one thing, Southwark pass it back to them and now you predict TfL will lob it with backspin to Southwark again. You can see why I need the media to help here as if you're working solo you get the major pee taken at every step. But it's not Boris though as Ken removed the lion's share in 2000 as soon as he arrived.

The only way we'll know who pulled the signs up is to catch them in the act and tickle the soles of their feet till they confess who gave them the orders. But as long as one lot agree to keep or replace them it's not that important as I suppose they're really all in it together.

[Kingsbury David]

Just a little update, after one of these chaps stood in perfect condition where I used to live till a few years ago and I passed it regularly, something stopped me from taking a photo until the time had passed. Thanks to days online and an email enquiry I finally got one more, not just my first old warning sign but the one I missed at home, albeit missing the triangle.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3519/3260882574_eae639c8d6_m.jpg

Anyone over 40 will remember when these were all there were, and as far as I know there are none in London since I missed one by weeks in December round Surbiton. The sign with the triangle in Belmont Hill Sutton is a copy so not included although the pole and triangle are original. Now if anyone with sharp eyes knows otherwise although it's unlikely it's not impossible one is still lurking deep in London's backwaters, the one here was in Hertford and on a private estate, and officially the nearest to London in existence, unless, as Esther said, you know different. I can't offer a prize but they all go in my book and will be preserved in history unlike the three I missed this century. I still need a whole sign if possible although I will probably have to go to Suffolk when I do get one if I don't discover one closer.