Old sign enquiry in East Dulwich

[Kingsbury David]

As seen by my name I'm not from Dulwich but on a project to take photos of every old road sign remaining in and around London before the councils remove them. These are pre-1963 and this is the type I have seen was at the roundabout on two entries a couple of years ago where East Dulwich Road meets Lordship Lane.

There was also one at the main road junction in the centre of West Norwood. If anyone can tell me if any or all of these are still there I will be off at the weekend to take them, they are one of the few things around now from my childhood(besides a couple of Routemaster buses in central London where I hardly ever go) so very dear to me.

Prior to these I collected the old train tickets (abolished in 1988) and the three Dulwich stations were a goldmine of ancient material and very useful in contributing to my real rarities. I knew the staff in many stations all over the south of England and a few would still recognise me today.

[zephyr]

Pretty sure that the one at the bottom of Lordship lane is. I think there is also one at the top of Lordship lane.

[Jah Lush]

Trainspotter.

[Kingsbury David]

You say trainspotter almost as if it was a bad thing Jah Lush. Always nice to get a pleasant welcome...

Thanks for that zephyr, it looks like my mission may well still be alive. After going to a few places for nothing recently I'm now checking the further away ones so I don't get caught out again.

[PeckhamRose]

I seem to remember there were a lot of old roadsigns with hands pointing to the relevant road at the end of the wooden sign, sort of part of the carving, and these are in Dulwich village or roads pointing to it. My memory tells me that Souhtwark Council in its regular branding exercise all councils feel they need to do, were told good and proper by the locals to leave those old signs where they were, or else! So they may be worth visiting. Don't know if there's a sign for the signs though, so you'd best come and visit.

[eater81]

I'm no expert on road signs but you should have a wander around Dulwich Village, there's loads of old looking road signs round there. In fact a journey from Lordship lane to Herne hill station via East Dulwich Grove, Village way and Half Moon Lane could make you very happy.

Could you not get in touch with the various councils? They will surely have somewehere a database of all their road signs, most likely including info on when they were last changed / replaced.

[Kingsbury David]

"Could you not get in touch with the various councils? They will surely have somewehere a database of all their road signs, most likely including info on when they were last changed / replaced."

I could do that although the few messages I have sent on similar matters have never received a reply. They'd probably quote the Data Protection Act and tell me they are official secrets. One person even suggested if we draw their attention to them it might even be their downfall, the law is a national one, originally designed to get rid of them all except the finger posts by 1997, then 2007. Clearly not done and sheer vandalism if had been, but Ken did his best when he got in in 2000 and removed many as a sort of middle finger gesture to London. The signs have worked perfectly well for over 45 years and if they are in good condition should be given preservation orders, not removed purely for 'following orders'.

I emailed TfL asking them to do this and the more people who add their voices (clearly not including Jah Lush who is probably a lot happier down the pub or watching East Enders- hold on, am I being judgemental and prejudiced?) they may even listen now Boris has got in. Always worth a go though.

[Kingsbury David]

Today showed the precise reason why I am doing this project, to preserve history. I know some people really don't care but that's no reason to let our past vanish forever. I got there from Camberwell and after sign one was taken went to sign two to find the 'East Dulwich' bit floating in mid air. And the one opposite had already just been replaced although they hadn't taken the 'East Dulwich' bit away yet. I didn't waste my time taking those two to see how the council had destroyed perfectly good signs.

I am emailing the council to ask them to keep the last one before it's too late, and hopefully the more of you who join me they may even listen. Local views may count but only if they hear them. Thanks for all your help and the good news is the one down the road in West Norwood is still there at the moment so didn't come back with just the one.

[PeckhamRose]

At what junctions were the signs you mention?

[Kingsbury David]

The one which was actually there is this chap on Grove Vale. When I crossed the roundabout to probably Lordship Lane I saw the remains of one on each side which had clearly gone within the last few weeks and was absolutely gutted. The one in West Norwood is on the main road just before the one way system at the lights.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/3163803834_6a8c8a7ca7_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3096/3162939113_68ec10b4e9_m.jpg

[PeckhamRose]

Oh THOSE. They're horrid. I like the newer bigger ones. I thought you were talking about the REALLY old wooden ones down in Dulwich with the hands pointing in the relevent direction. Now they're worth keeping.

[Asset]

They are not that old though PR as they keep getting nicked and then replaced.

[Kingsbury David]

I'm sure many are stolen but the last of these was made in 1963. The machines were changed for a different type of smooth surface, followed years later by a reflective one. The equipment for these styles is long gone from the modern manufacturers and the few that were replaced by similar ones use reflective smooth signs rather than raised lettering.

Rose, the post type signs were exempt under the 1963 legislation so they are never going to be under threat, they are found across the whole country so in no danger of any loss. These look very smart when new and one in Surbiton in far worse condition was painted recently by Kingston council. The new ones wear out after a few decades and can't be renovated and are simply replaced. The old ones can easily last 100 years plus if regularly looked after.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3164/2624495553_496afaf073_m.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3024/2757502544_fd0723ab29_m.jpg

[Huguenot]

Lol! Case in point. They don't work well do they?

Yellow is an established colour for signage denoting diversions rather than primary route, and the lettering is far too small to be read easily. These signs are just confusing and ineffective.

By all means keep them as works of art, but if they're occupying key signposting areas, then they need to replaced with effective signage! Stick the old ones up somewhere else where they don't need to work ;-)

[LostThePlot]

Hello David,

Were you about to witness this then?

http://www.photograph-er.co.uk/road_events/05_12_09_Last_routemaster/index.htm

On the matter of signage, I've thought I must try and get some shots of advertising painted onto buildings, as was done before the idea of bill boards emerged. Still lots about if you care to look.

E

[PeckhamRose]

What a lovely photo LostThePlot. Shame that Norwich Union is changing it's name to that of a bus company - or near enough that people may confuse it thus.

When riding along the roads, there are too many signs. The important ones ie directions, need to be clear and big. The current new ones do just that. Except those stupidly placed behind trees!

[Kingsbury David]

I didn't go on the bus, but followed the 13s around on Finchley Road before they were one of the last to go. I was very pleased to see some of the last on the 9 and 15 routes when I was in Aldwych recently, as much as anything else the buses and signs are the last connections with my past and would hate to see them lost altogether.

[Kingsbury David]

In case anyone's interest has been raised in this area here are my collection

Flickr old signs

And also a few hundred here Sabre gallery

There are at least four dedicated sites to these signs with spotters covering the British Isles.

[indiepanda]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

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> Shame that Norwich Union is changing it's name to that of a bus company - or near enough that people may confuse it thus.

lol, I used to work for them, and that was what most of us thought when they came up with the new name for the group after the last merger (which to be fair was better than the name of CGNU at the merger).

At that time they told us Aviva would only be used for the group and not the commercial trading brand because NU was such a strong brand in the UK, but I guess they've had a change of management and sometimes it seems no management team is comfortable to stick with someone else's decision no matter how sensible it was....

[Kingsbury David]

The trouble is all the companies (nearly all abroad) who take over ours want their presence over here. Abbey will soon become Santander and Cellnet is already O2 and One-2-One T-Mobile. London power is EDF and so on. The reason we will be hit the hardest now economically is we barely own any of our own businesses and hardly manufacture a thing either so all the money we do generate will go abroad rather than support our own economy. There used to be some pretty draconian laws to stop this back in the 60s and now I can understand what they were there for. Too late now, the bolt has been shot.

Oh, and on the signs please could anyone who gets a chance take a photo of the sign on Lordship Lane near Forest Hill if it is still there as I was going the other way on Saturday. There are none online and I only heard about it from this thread. The way things are going this may well be the last chance to get it on record.

[Sue]

Kingsbury David Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In case anyone's interest has been raised in this

> area here are my collection

>

> Flickr old signs

>

> And also a few hundred here Sabre gallery

>

> There are at least four dedicated sites to these

> signs with spotters covering the British Isles.

xxxxxxx

Why does this remind me of someone I once shared an office with who had a whole room in his house devoted to his slides (this was a long time ago) of buses?

:)

[Muttley]

All I can say is that as with many things in life, I'm glad there's somebody who cares. I've never given a second thought to London road signs before, but I will now. Keep up the good work David.

[indiepanda]

Kingsbury David Wrote:

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> The trouble is all the companies (nearly all abroad) who take over ours want their presence over here.

I know what you mean, but can't blame that in the case of Aviva / Norwich Union - it is a British company and remains so, just a rebranded one because they wanted one global brand instead of lots of different ones - they were NU in the UK, Commericial Union in Poland, Hibernian in Ireland etc etc.

[Sue]

Muttley Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All I can say is that as with many things in life,

> I'm glad there's somebody who cares. I've never

> given a second thought to London road signs

> before, but I will now. Keep up the good work

> David.

xxxxxx

Yeh I agree really :)

I'm all for people with a passion, whatever it is :)

[Kingsbury David]

Thanks Muttley and Sue, I took many of these for granted myself as they seemed so normal, but once I saw one had gone I realised how they needed to be preserved and did all I could to catch what was left.

Only today I passed another one in Cockfosters which had gone in the last few weeks and hope the efforts I'm making now may just turn the tide in time to save a few long term rather than know they are all on a death sentence.

I've collected all my life and gives me an aim and direction when I am, and of course try and get everything in a set if possible. My house is full of stuff as well, 30 year's worth of train tickets from the ticket collectors, hundreds of model cars and 60s memorabilia from my childhood. The signs are the last remaining 60s memorabilia around me and that's how I'd like to keep it.

Just spotted I'd forgotten to reply to indiepanda. I didn't know about Aviva, and glad to hear it. While every other British firm had been hoovered up (starting with Access) and changed colour, name and form, Aviva was the rare one who actually just changed its name to reflect new business. I think had these not happened extensively our economy would not have fared nearly so badly now as any profits made would have been injected back into the economy. The doors and windows are now all open and the heat is all going out.