Late night noise near Lordship Lane

[DaveHew]

Hi all

I was just wondering if anyone else suffers from noise late at night from bars and pubs on LL? We live near The Patch, which has recently taken to playing seriously loud music at 1 ? 2 am (and I mean seriously loud ? like in a nightclub). Admittedly it's not every night (more like one or two nights a week at the most) but it's made worse by the fact that they refuse to close their windows (we have asked, as have some friends of ours).

They kick the customers out at 2 am who then make noise outside until nearly 3 am. One of our neighbours spoke to the landlord / manager who told him they have a license until 2 am and they can do what they want until then. He said "come on, it's Lordship Lane".. Is it really that unreasonable to ask that they close their windows and doors after midnight? Can a pub in a residential area really have a licence to do what they want until 2 / 3 am?

Just wondering if we're suffering alone, or if there are others out there too?

Thanks all!

Dave

[rd123]

I know. It was really bad this weekend... And last. And so late!

[Siduhe]

According to the licence conditions on Southwark's website, the Patch has a licence to play music until 12:30am on a Friday and Saturday and there is a condition that all windows must be closed after 11pm. If the manager says different you might want to refer him to the licencing page I've hopefully linked to below.

There's definitely a balance to be struck between letting local businesses make the most out of the weekend trade and the needs of local residents, but that's what the licencing system is supposed to do, and it seems Southwark did take a number of these issues into account already. If you get no joy with the manager, you could also take it up with Southwark as these are conditions which the Patch agreed to - although I'd definitely try and sort it out directly if you can.

http://app.southwark.gov.uk/licensing/LicPremisesGrantedDetails.asp?systemkey=844773

[DaveHew]

Thanks Siduhe! That's very interesting!!

[steveo]

Why do people move into houses near pubs and then complain? The pub was there first.

That's how the wonderful garden at the Dog was closed.

[nxjen]

Been happening for centuries. The annual May Fair held in, er, Mayfair was closed partly due to complaints from the toffs who had moved into their newly built mansions in the early 18th century about the noise and debauchery.

However as regards noise from The Patch, it seems clear that the conditions for their license are being breached.

[Siduhe]

The pub was there first (although I don't know when the OP moved in and I'm guessing neither do you). But, as far as I recall, it didn't play loud music until 2am with windows open in any of its previous incarnations and based on what the Southwark website says, it shouldn't be doing it now. If what the OP has said is accurate, I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to raise. The licence conditions are there for a reason, to strike a balance between local businesses and local residents.

[DaveHew]

Thanks all for your comments. To confirm a few points:

1. The Patch only opened around last November, so this is a new issue.

2. Its predecessor (The Mag) didn't cause these problems.

3. The Patch certainly does play music loud with open windows well past midnight. The manager says their licence allows them to do so until 2 am for private functions (i.e. whenever anyone books the function rooms) so this is mostly Friday / Saturday nights. As I stated above, it is certainly not every night (or even the majority of them).

4. Of course you expect some noise if you live near a pub, but not until 1 / 2 /3 a.m. on a semi-regular basis. It's not a nightclub ? it just behaves like one at times.

5. All we've ever asked of them is to close their windows past midnight. I don't think that is an unreasonable ask. Their position was that if they ask their customers to close them, they will just open them again, so there's no point in trying.

6. Perhaps I should mention that when I say "the Manager", the person who went to see them asked to see the manager and that's who appeared. He didn't catch his name so we can't be certain if he was indeed the manager.

[BigED]

There were similar issues a couple of years ago when the Great Exhibition wanted to extend the terms of their licence. Concerned locals had a lot of input from Councillors James Barber (still a councillor) and Jonathan Mitchell (now an ex-councillor). In the first instance I would contact the council setting out the nature of the complaint, together with specific examples (dates, times) and copy in one or more of your local councillors. If the Patch is flouting the conditions of their licence then the council can do something about that. You can (not sure how but your councillors can help) apply for a review of the licence of there is evidence of ongoing/repeated non-complicance and/or excessive nuisance.

For the most part, the Great Exhibition is a much better neighbour now than it had previously been and does a reasonable job of closing doors/windows and trying to contain the noise. The Actress is even better, though partly because the licence conditions imposed on the Actress were more onerous (though not remotely unreasonable).

And although the pub (in some incarnation or other) was there first, the relaxation of licensing laws over the last 15 years has made a big difference to the hours of business (gone are the days when drinking-up time brought an end to consumption of alcohol at 11.10 pm) and the associated noise nuisance. The Patch might be on Lordship Lane but it is not close to the main drag of late night premises. Just because you're on LL does not give you licence to be a nuisance. And your punters will eventually comply if you repeat the requests (I can't remember the last time I saw someone smoking in a pub in this country). It has worked at the Great Exhibition and the Actress and I can't believe the drinkers at the Patch are all untame-able urban noise-bandits.

Contact the council. Copy in your councillor(s). Keep a record of dates, times and any details. Keep asking staff to close doors and windows. And let the management know when they are in breach of the terms of their licence - conditions can be made more stringent as well as less.

[worldwiser]

The Bishop pub has been routinely flouting its licence for years with regard to middle-of-the-night refuse collections. I have complained repeatedly (more than 5 times) to the council and indeed to Mr Barber as the noise is extremely intrusive. They hardly ever reply without multiple, exasperated reminders, and no sanctions are ever brought to bear.

They collected again last night at 12:15am. They clearly have no intention of complying, their licence is meaningless, and no-one in authority is prepared to do anything about it.

[lpool]

Infringing music license does occassionally get taken seriously. Didn't Dulwich Hamlet lose license for this reason?

[BigED]

worldwiser, another option if the council isn't doing its bit - try sending in a freedom of information request to Southwark Council asking:

1) please list details of all complaints to [name of council] relating to [name of premises] including, but not limited to, breaches of licence conditions and noise nuisance, over the period [DATE X to DATE Y].

2) For each of these complaints, please list all action taken by [name of council] including, but not limited to, investigation of complaints, follow-up action and enforcement action.

3)Please provide a statement of [name of council]'s policy regarding the enforcement of licence conditions relating to premises licenced for the sale of alcohol and/or licenced for live or recorded music and dancing.

Copy in your councillors on the request. That way you and they have a record of the communication. Don't just rely on the EDF - it's not a formal communication channel for councillors.

Councils are legally obliged to respond to FOI requests provided they are not vexatious and do not give rise to a disproportionate amount of work for the council to be able to respond. Keep the request focused or break it up into two or more requests or change date ranges etc if you think they might try to say it is too difficult.

If/when you get the info, cross-reference with any of your own notes of times/dates, complaints made, etc.

And never ever give up. Licensees and council officers will assume that if the complaints stop that there is no problem. Keep up the pressure.

[duke]

Hi DaveHew,

Just wondering if you can grow some balls and go and have a meeting with the manager to discuss and solve the problem instead of relying on a unreliable neighbours or making ridiculous statements, and yes there were problems when it was called the mag ( I was a regular customer so I know )

As for BigED the freedom of information works both ways ie, ( please list details of all complaints to )

and to imply that customers of the patch are all untame-able urban noise-bandits is rather insulting especially as I am a refined urban bandit, which just gave me an idea for a quote for a t-shirt for you, it will read.. ( I am the ED nosey bandit ) so please state size and colour and cup size if required, oh and address or shall I get that from the freedom of information..?

Yours lovingly,

Duke... A customer of the Patch and other fine establishments of ED.

[Otta]

Well done duke, I'm sure you've just done The Patch a world of good with your support.

[stingray]

FYI Worldwiser,

I have heard this noise as well, and have a peer out of the window. Almost every time recently, it hasn't been the bishop, but sounds like somewhere over the road in Lordship Lane (can't quite see where from where I am).

[johnki]

It was the Bishop last night.. It woke me up

[stingray]

Heard the Bishop going, then heard the bottles later around 12:15.

Also alarm going off this morning for ages somewhere nearby.

(May be time to upgrade the windows..)

[worldwiser]

BigED, like it. Will try this. My correspondence with the council has been with the principal licensing officer at Southwark.

It's Dirty Harry's, the Bishop's contracted provider. They pick up bottles right outside the side door, sometimes as late as 2.30am. There's no one else this could be for. I've even tried corresponding directly with them since they are just as culpable. This has got me nowhere either.

FOI here we go...

[KrackersMaracas]

Worldwiser - thanks for posting. I've been bothered for a while about these collections(particularly bad in the summer when the windows are wide open) but was never sure what we could do as it doesn't seem to be the pub but the people loading the bottles on to the truck. I think the people collecting the refuse have to throw the bags of bottles over the cage surrounding the refuse truck and this is why it makes such a noise.

[susiq]

All the "Gastro Pubs" in east Dulwich have late license to piss off every one around the area, but, the disposal of bottles/rubbish etc., are usually by private firms employed by the "Gastro Pubs" they are not allowed to deliver or collect at any time they please, contact the local council, call 0207 525 5700 or Highways dept, or licensing dept. amd inform them.

[lildice29]

its lordship lane what do you really expect?

[NickT]

When I was buying a house in East Dulwich I chose a quiet street away from the shops so I could park outside and not be disturbed by noise. The pubs and bars, traffic and parking of Lordship Lane have always been there.

[DaveHew]

Lildice29 & NickT

Why, just because it's Lordship Lane, does that give these places the right to apparently ignore the terms of their licences? Does the law not apply on Lordship Lane? If the licencing authority thinks it's reasonable they should control the noise after certain hours, why should they simply ignore that? What other laws should they be able to ignore? No one is complaining about reasonable noise - this is all about being woken up at 1 / 2 / 3 am. Are you really saying that you expect that if you live 100 m from a pub which is only licenced to play music until 00.30 being woken up by loud music at 2 am is ok?

[KalamityKel]

lildice29 Wrote:

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> its lordship lane what do you really expect?

Perhaps you could explain what you mean?

[JohnL]

Some lanes seem to be different as demonstrated by our lane (Rye Lane) - I think our

noise (buses, parties on the road (the bakery), arguments, whistling, people heading

home early at 3:00 AM) trumps yours (in the nicest possible way):)

To do something about it would be called gentrification up here (I guess).

KalamityKel Wrote:

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> lildice29 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > its lordship lane what do you really expect?

>

> Perhaps you could explain what you mean?