One for the Boxing fans!

[Keef]

Naz was good value, but the fact he just disappeared after losing his title, and never went and got it back, means he was not a great. Barrera had him totally and utterly worked out, and Naz had no answer, and couldn't change his style.

[jimmy two times]

I think another boxer that probably wouldn't get into many people's top fives but must be worth a mention is Teofilio Stevenson the legendary Cuban heavyweight. 3 gold medals is as impressive a haul as can possibly be achieved in olympic boxing. Who knows how he may have fared if he'd become a pro? In fact there have been some tremendous Cuban fighters over the years such as Felix Savon and jose Napoles.

[Acid Casual]

jimmy two times Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Great analysis of Leonard/ Hagler fight and

> possible outcome of Mayweather/ Pacquaio fight

> Acid. If I remember correctly Hagler didn't fight

> much in the year prior to that fight, whereas

> Leonard's training camp was very intense. Perhaps

> Hagler underestimated Leonard because of the lay

> off and move up in weight? It was close and Hagler

> threw the bigger punches. I always loved Hagler

> from the moment I saw him beat up Minter, but

> there is a special place in my heart for Leonard.

> He was so dashing and so skilful and his pretty

> boy looks belied a true fighter's heart.

> It's also a great point about Pacquaio. He does

> make tiny mistakes and it's those tiny margins

> that Mayweather will exploit.

Again, what people fail to recall is that between knocking out Hearns and being beaten by Leonard, Hagler only fought John Mugabi. I think he was seriously beginning to lose his appetite for boxing. After you've unified your division and dispatched your most fearsome opponent in 3 rounds, where else do you go? The thing I admire most about Hagler is his total single-mindedness in everything he did. He was a middleweight and always was a middleweight. He didn't jump around between divisions.

Having held the title for 7 years solid and added the IBF version in 1983 to unify, where do you go?...

Leonard also jerked him around for the best part of 5 years with his "will I? Won't I fight you?" routine. Hagler let it be known that Leonard was the only fight he could get up for. I don't think he ever expected it to happen and when it did I think he was a bit taken aback.

Leonard is certainly not daft. he would have been preparing quietly well in advance. Apparently he had two "fights" behind closed doors to prepare for it. Can't remember who the two fighters were, but young hungry up and coming boxers were handsomely paid to do a full 12 rounds, sans headgear, no quarter asked or given, alone in the gym with only Angelo Dundee, Janks Morton, Mike Traynor and Roger Leonard witnessing.

A usual training camp is between 10-12 weeks for a fight of this magnitude. I think we can safely concur that Leonard was preparing well in advance of that.

I'd agree on Leonard's skill too. Easily the most naturally talented fighter of my lifetime. Were it not for Tommy Hearns I'd have been a massive Leonard fan.

[Acid Casual]

The fighters that Leonard has his behind closed doors fights (actually 10 rounders with Leonard wearing 16oz gloves whereas his opponents were very likely wearing 10oz) were...

Quincy Taylor who became a world champion himself in 1995, Robert Boo Boo Sawyer and Dwayne Cooper. The latter two were not to amount to much, but QT was a very decent fighter.

Teofilo Stevenson was a great fighter. As was Felix Savon.

[Acid Casual]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Naz was good value, but the fact he just

> disappeared after losing his title, and never went

> and got it back, means he was not a great. Barrera

> had him totally and utterly worked out, and Naz

> had no answer, and couldn't change his style.

For about 18 months - say between Steve Robinson and Tom Johnson, Naz was THE best British fighter of perhaps all time. Not having really seen the likes of Jimmy Wilde or Jim Driscoll I have to just go from the last 50 years or so)

If he had kept up this standard I think there's no doubt he'd have been our greatest ever fighter. His fight with Kevin Kelley was brilliant, but by then he'd already begun to decline. Not to the degree where most people would notice it, and being honest I don't think I quite did at the time either. My view was that this was a step up to meet quite a special fighter on his home turf, which he came through in thrilling fashion.

With the benefit of hindsight it seems he was beginning to unravel a little bit.

[Mick Mac]

Best british fighter of all time Naseem Haamed? - thats quite a statement.

I don't know much about boxing to be honest but if asked would ahve said Ken Buchanan.

I then found these lists from KO Magazine and Ring Magazine: Hamed is not in the top 10 in either but 11th in one. Buchanen is in the top 10 of both lists.

Ko Magazines Top 20 British fighters -

1. Lennox Lewis

2. Jimmy Wilde

3. Jim Driscoll

4. Freddy Welsh

5. Ted "Kid" Lewis

6. Ken Buchanan

7. Randolph Turpin

8. Benny Lynch

9. Owen Moran

10. John Conteh

11. Naseem Hamed

12. John H. Stracey

13. Peter Kane

14. Herol Graham

15. Chris Eubank

16. Nigel Benn

17. Howard Winstone

18. Alan Minter

19. Jim Watt

20. Freddie Mills

----------------------

The Ring Magazines Top 10 of All-time. (Abit more upto date)

1. Jimmy Wilde (137-5-2, 99 KOs; 1910-23): One of biggest punchers pound-for-pound ever

2. Ted ?Kid? Lewis (232-44-24, 80 KOs; 1909-29): Second greatest Jewish fighter after Benny Leonard

3. Jackie ?Kid? Berg (157-26-9, 61 KOs; 1924-45): Fought and beat many of America?s best

4. Joe Calzghe (46-0, 32 KOs; 1993-present): Perfect record is impressive but had few meaningful victories

5. Jim Driscoll (63-4-6, 39 KOs; 1901-19): Went 3-0 against the great George Dixon and beat Abe Attell

6. Benny Lynch (81-12-15, 34 KOs; 1931-3: Alcoholism curtailed his career and life

7. Ken Buchanan (61-8, 27 KOs; 1965-82): Had misfortune of being a contemporary of Roberto Duran

8. Lennox Lewis (41-2-1, 32 KOs; 1989-2003): Greatest British heavyweight of all-time

9. Owen Moran (65-19-8, 19 KOs; 1900-16): Had wars with some of the best little men ever

10. Randy Turpin (66-8-1, 45 KOs; 1946-64): Only the second man to beat the great Sugar Ray Robinson.

[Bellenden Belle]

Acid Casual - you certainly seem to have a great boxing knowledge (and sparring with Benn is certainly something special) so I wonder if you think like me that Naz was always set-up to lose due to Brendan Ingle....

Let me explain....I've read reports that Ingle is renowned for producing young boxers with super fast reflexes and practicing the "hands-down-by-waist get-the-&%$(-out the way style of defence. Now Naz was no doubt a superb practitioner of this art. It allowed his powerful punches to come from unorthodox angles confusing and hurting opponents.

BUT....with age all of Ingle's fighters reflexes begin to wain. Without the basics of good defensive skills they begin to get hit more and more creating a vicious cycle. Eventually they lose. And cannot come back because by then, it's too late.

Hamed allowing his family to run his career and slow up on his training certainly didn't help but I can't help wonder whether the seeds of defeat were sown early on in a Sheffield gym....

[david_carnell]

Piss flaps - just posted on my girlfriend's account! Heh.

[Acid Casual]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Best british fighter of all time Naseem Haamed? -

> thats quite a statement.

>

> I don't know much about boxing to be honest but if

> asked would ahve said Ken Buchanan.

>

> I then found these lists from KO Magazine and Ring

> Magazine: Hamed is not in the top 10 in either but

> 11th in one. Buchanen is in the top 10 of both

> lists.

>

> Ko Magazines Top 20 British fighters -

>

> 1. Lennox Lewis

> 2. Jimmy Wilde

> 3. Jim Driscoll

> 4. Freddy Welsh

> 5. Ted "Kid" Lewis

> 6. Ken Buchanan

> 7. Randolph Turpin

> 8. Benny Lynch

> 9. Owen Moran

> 10. John Conteh

> 11. Naseem Hamed

> 12. John H. Stracey

> 13. Peter Kane

> 14. Herol Graham

> 15. Chris Eubank

> 16. Nigel Benn

> 17. Howard Winstone

> 18. Alan Minter

> 19. Jim Watt

> 20. Freddie Mills

> ----------------------

>

> The Ring Magazines Top 10 of All-time. (Abit more

> upto date)

>

> 1. Jimmy Wilde (137-5-2, 99 KOs; 1910-23): One of

> biggest punchers pound-for-pound ever

>

> 2. Ted ?Kid? Lewis (232-44-24, 80 KOs; 1909-29):

> Second greatest Jewish fighter after Benny

> Leonard

>

> 3. Jackie ?Kid? Berg (157-26-9, 61 KOs; 1924-45):

> Fought and beat many of America?s best

>

> 4. Joe Calzghe (46-0, 32 KOs; 1993-present):

> Perfect record is impressive but had few

> meaningful victories

>

> 5. Jim Driscoll (63-4-6, 39 KOs; 1901-19): Went

> 3-0 against the great George Dixon and beat Abe

> Attell

>

> 6. Benny Lynch (81-12-15, 34 KOs; 1931-3:

> Alcoholism curtailed his career and life

>

> 7. Ken Buchanan (61-8, 27 KOs; 1965-82): Had

> misfortune of being a contemporary of Roberto

> Duran

>

> 8. Lennox Lewis (41-2-1, 32 KOs; 1989-2003):

> Greatest British heavyweight of all-time

>

> 9. Owen Moran (65-19-8, 19 KOs; 1900-16): Had wars

> with some of the best little men ever

>

> 10. Randy Turpin (66-8-1, 45 KOs; 1946-64): Only

> the second man to beat the great Sugar Ray

> Robinson.

I didn't say that. What I said was that for an 18 month period, he was THE best. You become the best of all time by sustaining that over a career, which he didn't.

My personal choice would be Buchanan, but on reflection I'd say he might have to settle for third place behind Lennox Lewis and Joe Calzaghe. Maybe you could mix the order up, but those would be my top 3. I can't possibly comment on any of the real old time fighters because I have seen very little footage of them, and if I were to go with common wisdom and put Jimmy Wilde at the peak, I would be doing that based only on volume of opinion. Best to go with what I know I think.

The case for each, in my opinion, is...

Lewis - First British heavyweight champion in over a century, fought and beat all before him, vastly underrated skills.

Buchanan - Possibly THE most respected UK fighter in the states. Fought at Madison Square Garden more than any other British fighter fought and beat some true greats - a better calibre of opponent than possibly any other Brit - Carlos Ortiz, Ismael Laguna (twice) and Duran.

Calzaghe - Longest reigning super middleweight champ ever. Held the title for over a decade, which is simply amazing. Only thing is that he could have fought in The States earlier and faced some bigger names earlier in their careers.

John Conteh too was really, really underrated.

[Mick Mac]

You said - "For 18 months........the best british fighter of perhaps all time" - Apologies if I misunderstood - as I say I admit I don't know much about boxing, but found the lists interesting nontheless.

[Acid Casual]

Bellenden Belle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Acid Casual - you certainly seem to have a great

> boxing knowledge (and sparring with Benn is

> certainly something special) so I wonder if you

> think like me that Naz was always set-up to lose

> due to Brendan Ingle....

>

> Let me explain....I've read reports that Ingle is

> renowned for producing young boxers with super

> fast reflexes and practicing the

> "hands-down-by-waist get-the-&%$(-out the way

> style of defence. Now Naz was no doubt a superb

> practitioner of this art. It allowed his powerful

> punches to come from unorthodox angles confusing

> and hurting opponents.

>

> BUT....with age all of Ingle's fighters reflexes

> begin to wain. Without the basics of good

> defensive skills they begin to get hit more and

> more creating a vicious cycle. Eventually they

> lose. And cannot come back because by then, it's

> too late.

>

> Hamed allowing his family to run his career and

> slow up on his training certainly didn't help but

> I can't help wonder whether the seeds of defeat

> were sown early on in a Sheffield gym....

I dunno about that. Ingle seemed to do OK with Johnny Nelson who is (and this is no disrespect to Johnny) quite limited, yet he was a world champ under Ingle. Bomber Graham I just think was tragically never meant to be a world champ, and of course Hamed.

I think that Hamed's problem was his own big head and as you say, his spectacularly stupid and selfish brothers. One minute you are working as a community warden to the Sheffield Yemeni community and working in the family shop, the next you are managing the affairs of one of the most talented sportsmen to have emerged from this country in recent years. Pair of idiots.

If they had any care and concern for their brother, they would have left well alone. Instead they are suddenly swanning about in sports cars, wearing too much hair gel with ridiculous chin strap pencil beards. Yeah! Looking good you pair of nobodies!

I remember a documentary which followed Hamed in the run up to the Barrera fight and Emmanuel Steward was patently disgusted with Hamed's efforts (or lack of them) when training and sparring in Palm Springs. he was asked if he thought the day had gone well and he immediately replied "No. He'll have to do a lot better than that tomorrow. A lot better" before walking off.

Like most trainers, if you can't be arsed, they can't be arsed - and rightly so. Why should they waste their time if you're going to piss about? Steward just had a look or complete bemusement on his face throughout. As if he was thinking "what am I doing here when I could be with Lennox who'll actually train properly?"

I think that Hamed was beyond help at that point.

[Mick Mac]

I usually think its the end of a boxer when he trains in plush surroundings. I remember when Hagler was champion he used to lock himself away in a run down makeshift gym in the middle of nowhere, away from media and hangers on - to keep himself hungry. Seemed to work for him.

[jimmy two times]

I'm very suprised that Ricky Hatton is not in any of those lists and that Nigel Benn is so lowly ranked at 16. No Barry Mcguigan either?

[Acid Casual]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I usually think its the end of a boxer when he

> trains in plush surroundings. I remember when

> Hagler was champion he used to lock himself away

> in a run down makeshift gym in the middle of

> nowhere, away from media and hangers on - to keep

> himself hungry. Seemed to work for him.

Horses for course I think. No way was Leonard ever going to slum it after he made his first million. I'd imagine Mayweather would not either, but I do know that many keep the hunger alive by living spartan for a while.

I remember the Ron Peck documentary called Fighters which centred around The Royal Oak in Canning Town in around 1991. It primarily focused on Mark Kaylor's comeback. Good God, spartan is not the word! The room where he was lodging would drive even those of the sunniest disposition to suicide.

After about 2 days I'd have been so depressed I'd have been in no fit mental shape to fight. You can't train all the time. Your body needs time to recover and that means sleep and rest in a relatively comfortable environment. I think you can take this austerity a bit too far personally.

[????]

Mark Kaylor...propa West Ham

[Acid Casual]

jimmy two times Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm very suprised that Ricky Hatton is not in any

> of those lists and that Nigel Benn is so lowly

> ranked at 16. No Barry Mcguigan either?

Reason being that I think many of the names on this list will actually have never been seen by those who complied them, hence they are in there on their legend. Not suggesting for a moment that they were not brilliant, but we just don't know. Legend carries a lot of weight, which is why if I haven't really seen someone fight I tend not to offer an opinion on them. I think there's a bit of that going on in these lists.

That said, still no assurance that Hatton would have gotten in. Good fighter, but not sure about a top ten or twenty placing. I think his popularity tends to overshadow his ability.

[Acid Casual]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mark Kaylor...propa West Ham

You want to hear Errol Christie on the subject of Kaylor! Eeeek! Duck and run for cover!!!

[jimmy two times]

Nigel Benn was proper West Ham as far as I recall. I remember seeing him as an amatuer at the York Hall Bethnal Green and he wore West Ham colours.

[Acid Casual]

jimmy two times Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Nigel Benn was proper West Ham as far as I recall.

> I remember seeing him as an amatuer at the York

> Hall Bethnal Green and he wore West Ham colours.

Yes. He always said that he and Mark Kaylor were destined to meet. As it happened Benn outgrew Kaylor by quite a margin.

[jimmy two times]

No Denis Andries in those lists either. Another underated fighter. One of my personal favourites, though he'd probably never get in anyones top 20, was Tony Sibson. I think he fought Andries and Hagler, losing both. Good honest fighter though.

[????]

Kaylor fought Sibson and it was like a Saturday at Filbert Street in the seats - Baby Squad V ICF. Benn & of course Lewis was a Hammer too

[Mick Mac]

Acid Casual Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mick Mac Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I usually think its the end of a boxer when he

> > trains in plush surroundings. I remember when

> > Hagler was champion he used to lock himself

> away

> > in a run down makeshift gym in the middle of

> > nowhere, away from media and hangers on - to

> keep

> > himself hungry. Seemed to work for him.

>

> Horses for course I think. No way was Leonard ever

> going to slum it after he made his first million.

> I'd imagine Mayweather would not either, but I do

> know that many keep the hunger alive by living

> spartan for a while.

>

> I remember the Ron Peck documentary called

> Fighters which centred around The Royal Oak in

> Canning Town in around 1991. It primarily focused

> on Mark Kaylor's comeback. Good God, spartan is

> not the word! The room where he was lodging would

> drive even those of the sunniest disposition to

> suicide.

>

> After about 2 days I'd have been so depressed I'd

> have been in no fit mental shape to fight. You

> can't train all the time. Your body needs time to

> recover and that means sleep and rest in a

> relatively comfortable environment. I think you

> can take this austerity a bit too far personally.

I think you may have missed the point I was talking about the immediate run up to a big fight not a boxers general living conditions. I believe hagler liked luxury as much as the next man but when it came to preparation for a big fight his training camp was a very basic set up to get him in the right mind set.

[jimmy two times]

I'd hazard a guess Charlie Magri may have been a Hammer too?

[Keef]

Damn it David, I was well impressed with the Belle's boxing knowledge until you ruined it.

[jimmy two times]

I'd just like to give a special mention to the great Terry Lawless who died on Christmas eve. It didn't seem to receive a lot of coverage at the time. A shame as he was a great boxing coach.