Interesting blog re Harris

[Fuschia]

http://disidealist.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/harris-the-hero/

[Didine]

Thanks!

[intexasatthe moment]

Thanks Fuschia . Very interesting read . I do wonder how they operate their banding system for this school . Maybe it helps that Crystal Palace Harris have a wide geographical catchment area and don't limit themselves to closest walking distance .

Their oversubscriptions policy http://www.harriscrystalpalace.org.uk/uploads/asset_file/hcacp-admissions.pdf says this

"There will be 9 ability bands with the percentage of places available in each band being determined by the profile of

the distribution of ability of the applicants for the Academy "

"Applications will then be considered against the ability band in which the applicant is

placed by the NVRT test score. The number of places available in each ability band

will be determined by NFER by matching the percentage of places in each band to

the ability profile of the applicants for places that year. Those percentages will be

applied to the number of places for the year available after deducting the 10%

allocated to those applicants with the highest scores for aptitude in Technology (i.e. 162) "

I can't pretend to fully understand these statements - to me it reads as though they take each years applicants ,rank them into highest performers and then divide that group into 9 bands . But I must be wrong .

[Ole]

I can kind of understand what they are trying to achieve but they way they have written it reads like gobbledygook. If your child gets in they might as well said his name got pulled out of a hat.

[Mrs TP]

I think it does get pulled out of a hat but within an ability band. If for e.g. a quarter of all the kids applying score A, a half score B and a quarter score C. They put all the A kids into a hat and pull out enough names to match a quarter of their intake. All the B kids into another hat and pull out enough names to match half their intake. All the C kids into another hat and pull out enough names to match the final quarter. Then probably continue pulling out names in each band to form their waiting list for each band. This is how I understand Kingsdale also works.

Other schools (Forest Hill) also select on intake bands but rather than pulling names out of a hat go on proximity to school within each band.

Some schools put their applicants into bands based on their primary school yr 5 reports and some set their own tests.

If you want a lottery based school put it near the top of your list and fill up the bottom with a couple of distance based schools to be sure of a place somewhere that you have choosen. Putting all lottery schools is highly risky. The 5th and 6th on your list don't go 'oh look they didn't get their top four so let's offer them a place' they still pull names out of a hat regardless and you may not get a school.

[intexasatthe moment]

Apart from the 10% for the technology speciality I don't think there's any suggestion of lottery or being pulled out of hat ,might be fairer if they did .

Here's a fuller extract

" All applicants to the Academy will be required to sit two tests:

1. A Non-Verbal Reasoning Test (NVRT). Applicants will be allocated to an ability

band on the basis of their NVRT test score. There will be 9 ability bands with the

percentage of places available in each band being determined by the profile of

the distribution of ability of the applicants for the Academy. (Any student ill on the

day of the test will be provided with an opportunity to sit the test on an alternative

day, provided the illness is supported by an official medical note). Exceptions to

this rule will only be made for children with Statements of Special Educational

Needs and looked after or former looked after children.

2. Technology Aptitude Test. This test is designed to produce an objective ranking

of their aptitude for Technology as a subject. (As the Academy has a specialism

in Technology).

(The National Foundation for Education Research NVRT practice papers are

produced by NFER and are widely available at stationers. The unique nature of

the Technology Test makes it difficult for students to prepare for the tests as they

test technological capabilities. Past Technology Test papers are not available).

90% of places will be allocated to Zone A - a zone up to 2

mile radius from the fixed point highlighted on the area

map.

10% of places will be allocated to Zone B - a zone over 2

miles radius from the fixed point. The fixed point is from the

gate at the main Academy entrance on Maberley Road.

[Ole]

What I meant to say is that unless you are willing to fry your brain totting up your chances, or you are a mathematical genius capable of doing complex mental algorithm or whathaveyounot, the best thing is to sit the tests, apply, and hope for the best. I say this in good humour. It annoys me that getting a local secondary school seems to boil down to pot luck and that there does not seem much point in even thinking about what school you'd like your kid to go to. Oversubscription issue, and I admit I would not have the first clue how to come up with an alternative solution.

They could at least write the policy in Plain English though.

[Otta]

We moved close to Harris Crystal Palace (it's in Penge!!!) and went to visit a while ago with a view to possibly moving our daughter there.

I was VERY impressed with the early years and their attitude to SEN. They showed us some of the student's year books, and it was absolutely amazing compared to what we've had from her current school.

Less impressed with the fact my younger daughter would have to wear uniform to nursery if we choose to send her there in September, but that's not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

[Otta]

Sorry, I was talking about the primary school, not the secondary.

[LondonMix]

They are just describing ?fair banding practice?. It simply means that instead of the bands being determined by average national ability (which can be very different from local ability in a small catchment), they create the bands based on the proportional ability of the students that apply. The implication of this is that if lots of low aptitude students (compared to the national average) apply, then more of the bands will be made up of low aptitude students. If the majority of students who apply are high aptitude then the opposite will be true.

I?m not really sure this is the best way to band but its seen a ?fair? for the following reason. If 100 students apply for 10 spaces and 90 of those students are in the bottom 10% of scores nationally, then 90% of the places within the bands will be allocated to students in the bottom 10% of scores. Without fair banding, only 1 student out of the 90 low achievers that applied would potentially get a place. The other 9 places would be given to the small subset of 10 candidates who tested above the top 10%.

What is worrying about it is that it doesn?t actually make schools comprehensive. It only bands based on who wants to apply which could be all high or all low achievers. If the area is academically mixed and students of all abilities apply to the school in proportional numbers its not a problem but it obviously can skew heavily depending on who bothers to apply.

[LondonMix]

The statistics Fuschia's report make mention of (if true) would indicate, Harris's previous success has created a situation in which all of the local high achieving students want to go there. All of them put it as their first choice and then the banding proportionally skews towards high achievers. This is the big risk of ?fair banding?

[intexasatthe moment]

I think what worries me is how little detail is given about the bands - are they equal in size for instance ? And how opaque the system is unless you're familiar with banding .

And apologies for saying earlier that they dont use a lottery system - I see they do ,within the bands .

[LondonMix]

Yeah, it can be hard to understand and schools don't do a good job of explaining it. This article is helpful.

http://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-fair-banding-for-secondary-schools-23661

The best way for banding to create a comprehensive intake is when schools band together (ie. use fairbanding but looking at applicants not just to their school but in all of the local schools or even the entire LA). This creates the most comprehensive intake within a local area and prevents the type of skewing described above.

Ideally, I would like to see the new Habs ED Secondary design its bands in coordination with the other local schools serving the community: Harris ED Girls, Harris ED Boys, and Kingsdale so they all use the same bands / test. Preferably a single test that could be taken in the local primaries would be the basis as well but I'm not sure Southwark Admission Forum are active enough to bring something like that into practice.

One of the main goals of banding is to create a comprehensive intake so any school that has banding should want to coordinate with other secondary schools to make the policy more effective.

[intexasatthe moment]

" One of the main goals of banding is to create a comprehensive intake " should be . But I suspect that some Academy chains deliberately manipulate the system to give themselves a good intake .

Harris use different banding systems in different areas and not to the effect of achieving a comprehensive intake as at Crystal Palace . They have a lot of money and can call on extensive professional advice so I don't think this is an accident . Nor their failure to explain their admissions policies clearly .

And although it may no longer be a statutory requirement for LA's to have Admissions Forums surely we need them more than ever now to achieve coordination .

Oh well .

[BB100]

I heard this second hand so not sure how true it is but it is very funny if it is because it just sums up how arrogant they are.

At Harris CP they have a receptionist who is extremely rude. A parent was at reception when the receptionist spotted a man walking about outside in the school grounds. She then asked a colleague 'how did he get in? Go and get rid of that dirty old man'. It turned out to be Lord Harris

.

[LondonMix]

I?m not sure its on purpose. When people devised fair-banding, think tanks thought it would really lead to more comprehensive schools. It never occurred to them that less able students (and their parents) would actively not apply to high achieving schools.

Fair banding only skews to high-achievers if low achievers don?t apply!

I think this is a unique cultural issue in the UK that needs to be addressed at a more fundamental level.

Anyhow, now that schools recognize that lower achieving pupils actively shy away from high achieving schools relative to their high achieving peers, the system needs to be tweaked to reflect this surprising ?self-exclusion? done by low achieving families.

[intexasatthe moment]

Well I'm sure Harris are on it and working out a solution .

[Renata Hamvas]

There used to be a Southwark wide banding system, but basically all the schools decided to operate their own system (as the are all either Academies or VA they can do so) so it was pointless for Southwark to do banding when no-one used it.

Renata

[LondonMix]

In Lewisham they are mostly academies and have managed it. The Admission Forum has a lot more power than you suggest. Adhering to their recommendations is not option under the new code if there is good reason to make policy changes.

Does Southwark LA still have an Admissions Forum to help guide and coordinate policy accross the borough?

[espelli]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I?m not sure its on purpose. When people devised

> fair-banding, think tanks thought it would really

> lead to more comprehensive schools. It never

> occurred to them that less able students (and

> their parents) would actively not apply to high

> achieving schools.

>

> Fair banding only skews to high-achievers if low

> achievers don?t apply!

>

> I think this is a unique cultural issue in the UK

> that needs to be addressed at a more fundamental

> level.

>

> Anyhow, now that schools recognize that lower

> achieving pupils actively shy away from high

> achieving schools relative to their high achieving

> peers, the system needs to be tweaked to reflect

> this surprising ?self-exclusion? done by low

> achieving families.

LondonMix do you have any data on this? My own experience of working in a primary school with a high proportion of children from disadvantaged backgrounds was that they did apply to the local high achieving school as their families were just as aspirational as the "high achieving families" but that the complicated admissions forms and additional tests that were required as part of the process were what tended to trip them up.

I would also argue that fair banding also works in the reverse to the way you describe it. Given the pressure on school places at high achieving schools this causes more families who are able to afford to move to be closer to the school or get their child tutored in how to take the tests to apply means that the higher bands get proportionately more applicants and therefore are offered more places. Fair banding skews to support a more able intake if the school can attract them. The local secondary school above also operated 9 bands but they were equally distributed and this meant that our pupils had a better chance of getting in if they were in the lower bands as there were so many applicants in the higher bands. This would not have been true if they had operated fair banding.

[LondonMix]

Espelli- I agree 100% with what you have said. The testing and application procedures (particularly when multiple tests need to be sat) have also been seen as a risk factor for discouraging lower-ability and lower income students from applying.

However, the feeling that high achieving school?s ?were not for them? was another factor identified in a recent report by the Sutton Trust (I?ve linked to it previously).

Not every school that runs its own tests has a high-achieving skewed intake?from memory I actually think Hatcham slightly skews towards lower ability students?but it?s a risk worth eliminating. I strongly advocate one test in primary school used across an LA for this reason.

Where certain schools in an LA are skewing heavily, the Admission Forum should use its statutory powers to ensure multiple-school or LA wide banding to ensure an equitable intake. There is a reason checks and balances have been put into the system.

[Fuschia]

Hatcham's 2013 gcse results were based on a cohort with only 10% low attainers, charter actually had 19%.

I can't make the link work for the cohort breakdown but this might work for progress.

Hatcham has well below required progress for low achievers

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=GR&f=6PyX7pwLHi&superview=sec&view=aat&set=7&sort=l.schname&ord=asc&tab=78&no=998&pg=1

[Fuschia]

Ah this might work

http://www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/group.pl?qtype=GR&f=rsmFAiwT2P&superview=sec&view=aat&set=10&sort=l.schname&ord=asc&tab=94&no=998&pg=1

I saved it as a jpeg if I could mail to someone to post it. Can't do it via iPhone.

[Fuschia]

Ah

I tell a lie

[Fuschia]

And progress