Thames Water is Tunneling under your house.

[tomdhu]

We have received notification from Thames Water that they are going to bore a large tunnel under our property and many others in the Dulwich area. This is part of a water ring main project and will be done by a large TBM (Tunnel Boring Machine). The tunnel will be 4.9 km long and 3.2M in diameter. There are several worrying issues arising from this.

Firstly, it imposes restrictions on any future development of your house eg if you want to build an extension etc. You have to advise any potential buyer of this restriction. This will have a serious impact on the value of the house when you come to sell.

Secondly, there will inevitably be some ground settlement above the line of the tunnel and this will give rise to SUBSIDENCE AND POTENTIAL DAMAGE to your house.

Both these issues are very serious.

Are you affected also?

If you live along a line between Brixton (pumping station) and Honor Oak (golf course) then you will be affected.

Here is a list of the streets starting at Brixton via Herne Hill and ending at Honor Oak:-

Beechdale Road

Fairmount Road

Arodene Road

Helix Road

Leander Road

Arlington Road

Brailsford Road

Dulwich Road

Half Moon Lane

Carver Road

Ruskin Walk

Village way

East Dulwich Grove (Village End only)

Gilkes Crescent

Calton Avenue

Townley Road

Dovercourt Road

Beauval Road

Landcroft Road

Rodwell Road

Heber Road

Cyrena Road

Crystal Palace Road

Landells RoadBarry Road

Underhill Road

Upland Road

Forest Hill Road

Dovedale Road

Shelbury Road

Scutari Road

Mundania Road

Homestall Road

Thames Water have appointed Brooton Knowls (Surveyors) to carry out inspections of all properties along the line. They don't want you to get your own independent surveyor. BK and TW have a very intimate working relationship and anyone could be correct in thinking that BK may not be totally impartial. BK will come in and look for any cracks or defects in the walls, floors and ceilings of your house.

They will photograph and write a written report on what they find. You will not be allowed to contribute or be given the opportunity to contest or sign off this report. If they find any cracks they can later say ...."there was evidence that the property was prone to subsidence before the tunnel was even constructed." Needless to say your chances of compensation then would be ZERO. Subsidence could take as long as 10- 15 years to appear - depending on when there's a drought year.

If there is sufficient interest amongst you all, I feel we should set up an action group that will strive to protect all our interests. TW is a big commercial entity that doesn't exactly have the best reputation for looking after the interests of the community. It is main shareholders are all foreign.

Meantime, I recommend that you get as much information out of TW as possible. They are obliged under the Environmental Information Regulations 2004 to provide you with answers. They cannot refuse. But as a starting point you should ask for full copies of the following:-

1. Environmental Impact Study.

2. Geotechnical Design Report.

These are thick publications and make interesting reading. It will cost TW a bit of time and effort to provide you with copies but please don't be fobbed off by them. Insist on your rights.

They will try and fob you off with an invitation (from their smooth-talking PR man ) to their headquarters to see their display, but hold your ground and insist on the reports and any other answers that you need to have.

I suggest also that you insist that TW pay for an independent surveyor of your choosing ie not Brooton Knowls.

See this link about similar subsidence http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2036-satellites-spot-city-subsidence.html

Good luck.

Tom Dhu

[SeanMacGabhann]

So are you saying there should be no upgrade to the aging water network? And what would you suppose thames water's dodgy motivation for undertaking this expensive work is?

[cdonline]

I'm rather fond of my water, the odd shower, Ribena, for my little plants and as a mixer occassionally.

[tomdhu]

No, I'm not saying what you suggest and frankly I can't see how you could reach that conclusion.

Do you work for TW?

Do youown property?

What I am saying is....

1.Protect your own interests eg make sure your entitlement to compensation is not compromised in any way.

2.Get your own survey from a surveyor that is not linked to TW and be able to provide input to the survey.

3.Be aware that settlement damage is a real risk and can happen years later.

4.Get information. Being informed is better than being ignorant.

5.TW has "previous". Just be on the lookout.

If your property is above the pipeline you have to notify and seek approval from TW before you undertake ANY development to your property. When you come to sell your property, you are compelled to advise the potential purchaser that there is this restriction. This means your property is blighted and it is woth less than it was.

Does this help?

[intexasatthe moment]

tomdhu would you know whether there is any info available on affect of other works carried out by TW or other water authorities ? You say TW has previous... I've looked at New Scientist link,which looks pretty worrying ,especially the text where it seems that it's too easy for firms to distance themselves from claims that they've caused subsidence .

Certainely it sounds really concerning,I guess this will also have implications re buildings insurance - good on you for bringing this to our attention.

Is there somewhere that gives more info about the exact route of the tunnel - we're mid Barry Rd ( which is already affected by subsidence ,aggravated IMO by the bendy buses )and I'm wondering how close our address will be to the route.

[tomdhu]

The path of the tunnel is very close to where Underhill crosses Barry Road. If you have not had notification by letter as yet, then you should be OK so I wouldn't worry if I were you.

As for the Bendy buses, they are not a contributing factor. Their axle loadings are much less than the double deckers as Bendys weigh less overall and their weight is spread over 3 axles instead of two.

The underlying factor is that all of South London is built on clay of differing types all the way down to about 40M below surface level. The clay hinders the passage of water. Below that there is a band of sand (highly permeable)and then chalk also somewhat permeable. These last two layers form the main acquifier. Depending on the annual precipitation, the clay shrinks or expands. Problem is that it never reverts back exactly to where it was before when it rehydrates. Hence settlement and subsidence. Building a tunnel through that lot precipitates quite a few problems up above.

[capt_birdseye]

One of these mega-tunnels was dug next to my parents house in Summer '07. They suffered a large amount of cracks throughout the house and their cellar now has to have large amounts of water pumped out of it every week. They have been fighting with TW ever since to get them to admit liability.

Yes, they're clearly not doing the work for the sake of it, but I would agree with tomdhu thath if the work is happening in your area then be sure you're aware of it, an action group doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.

[zephyr]

tomdhu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If your property is above the pipeline you have to

> notify and seek approval from TW before you

> undertake ANY development to your property. When

> you come to sell your property, you are compelled

> to advise the potential purchaser that there is

> this restriction. This means your property is

> blighted and it is woth less than it was.

>

> Does this help?

I am pretty sure you have to do this anyway for extensions (which is what you really mean anyway). Friends of our have had there simple extension work held up for months as they have had to get permission from TW (due to the crap state of the current water/sewer system)

[Huguenot]

I had to get TW agreement for an extension over a water pipe at the bottom of Crawthew Grove.

It took a week, they were friendly and helpful. I supported their view that it's good to get professional advice before building on top of other structures. I also supported their view that the water network was a rather important part of the city's infrastructure, and that 'meausure twice, cut once' doesn't hurt anyone.

As you can imagine, it had f*ck all impact on the value of my property.

Having water supplies shut down twice a year because of system failures did have had a f*cking impact on the value.

I'm rather impressed Tom that you managed to argue that foreign shareholders are a good reason to campaign against the project. All those Johnny foreigners trying to quite literally undermine the capital are clearly up to no good. Napoleon'll be here any minute. Pitchforks and torches all. British shareholders have never shat on anyone.

As for trying to stop the project through a blizzard of administrative tripwires, that's just bloodyminded.

Ridiculous.

There is a sensible suggestion to get independent surveys done to ensure TW are liable for damage. There's also a reasonable suggestion that we ensure that both sides of the scientifc debate are explored. The rest is just crap.

[Monkey]

Thanks Tom for bringing this to our attention.

[SteveT]

This tunnel is not to carry drinking water, it carries run-off from brixton down to greenwich, to save brixton from flooding I believe.

[SeanMacGabhann]

hi Tom - I do own a property in the epicentre of those roads, but I don't work for TW (or any public utility company)

I might have been unfair in saying you were trying to stop the tunnelling but there was still an alarmist tone to much of your post. It's happening, it might affect us, but Huguenot's last paragraph is all that needs stating on the TODO front

SteveT - if what you say is correct, is the need for such a tunnel a direct result of everyone paving over their gardens for parking? Can we sue those house-owners for subsequent damages? ;-)

[candj]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We're currently retrofitting a basement on one of the aforementioned streets and we're already digging down 12 feet for sub-structure footings. They will have to at least dig down further than that around us. I'll pass this on to our engineers for their opinions and post back.

[tomdhu]

Huguenot,

This isn't just a 'water pipe', this is a 15 foot diameter tunnel that cuts through the different sub-strata underground. This has proven implications for the stability of the entire geological structure in its immediate vicinity. TW admit that settlement will occur - mostly in a band 5M wide along the entire length of the route.

As to your suspicions of xenophobia, I omitted to explain that, as a foreigned owned company with only institutional shareholders, you and I are not able to purchase a single share which would entitle you to attend the annual shareholderrs meeting. If you attend an AGM you could ask questions and express concern about how property owners are being adversly affected by having their homes devalued and damaged by this project. As I said in a previous post, knowledge is a powerful enabler and gives one leverage.

So just take comfort in the fact that your little pipe will not cause your house to subside.

[tomdhu]

Capt Birdseye,

This is just the type of evidence we need. I'm interested to find out what street and district you are located. Not your full address.

[tomdhu]

SteveT,

This is definately for drinking water. Dere is the some relevant text from TW's web site. Quote..

The southern route will allow up to 200 million litres of water per day to be transferred from the Thames Water Ring Main at Brixton to the Honor Oak reservoirs. Unquote

Tom

[Huguenot]

Okay Tom, but what exactly are you proposing should your campaign be successful?

Do you want the pipe not to be built?

Do you want the pipe to be built under someone else's house?

Do you have an alternative solution to the problem the pipe is there to resolve?

Do you want some money off TW to get you off their case?

Do you want an opportunity for recourse if a problem is created?

There seems to be a mess of conflicting motivations and arguments here, can you clear it up for us?

As for debate, don't be silly. Minority shareholders can't hold companies to ransom. You've been watching too much Wall Street. You can still campaign to institutional investors the usual ways.

Besides, the tunnel will require planning permission and will be subject to enquiry. Campaign sensibly and democratically through that process, not through mob warfare.

[Huguenot]

Incidentally, the little pipe did cause my house to subside - it leaked and ruined the footings. You can still see the impact by looking at the party wall of the 'white' house on Crawthew Grove. Cost 90 grand to fix it, the walls and floors were all pissed.

[tomdhu]

OK Huguenot, Its like this:-

1. The city needs the pipe and it's good that they are planning ahead and spending ₤90M doing it. It will be built. I want it to be built. My water bills have helped pay for it.

2. I have to accept that (because a straight line is the shortest length between 2 points) it will pass under part of my house. It's the luck of the draw.

3. There is no acceptable radically different solution ( eg overground) but the way in which the work is executed could minimise/eliminate the damage ie using EPB (Earth Pressure Balanced) TBM ( Tunnel Boring Machine) with FULLY pressurised compensation grouting. It should also be down a further 10M down to eliminate the risk of encountering inconsistent geology where by they unexpectedly cut into a dip in the Thanet sand layer. This caused problems previously. See http://environment.uwe.ac.uk/geocal/SoilMech/water/WATERCAS.htm#THAMES . Also, there has also been 2 fatalities where they dug into a special type of clay called glauconite which oxidises on contact with air. This resulted in the air being de-oxygenated.

4. No I don't want to be bought off.

5. What I do want fair involvement in producing an accurate condition report prior to the work plus full compensation when (not if) the settlement affects my house with no time limit- as the problems could take 20 years to emerge.

6. As you say minority shareholders cannot hold a company to ransom but they can achieve results that might not have happened otherwise because they exposed issues that otherwise would not have gained traction.

7. You say compaign sensibly and democratically. Can you tell me what is there in my posts that contravene these sentiments. Please do not make hasty and erroneous assumptions.

[tomdhu]

Huguenot,

Sorry to hear that.

So I guess your house had to be underpinned as a result. This raises questions.

1. Did you tell your insurer about this?

2. Did you have problems getting insurance after that?

3. If so, how much has it increased by?

4. If your house is now underpinned, how much has this affected the value?

Tom

[p_in_ed]

I'm surpised that people are having a pop at tomdhu. The case he presents is detailed, informed and articulate. The East Dulwich Forum seems to be a legitimate arena for bringing peoples attention to local issues. I'm sure there are plenty of people that have absolute faith in Thames Water, and have no concerns over the project, but it's perfectly proper for people that do have concerns to raise them here.

[mockney piers]

I don't think people were having a pop ther pined.

The OP was a tad ALARMIST in nature, it could happen TO YOU.

Subsequent postings have shown that Tom is well informed and quite rational about it all however, and the queryists seem happy enough with that.

[zephyr]

I have learnt a bit of geology about the local area. http://www.tunnels.mottmac.com/projects/?mode=type&id=113114

Now I know a bit about Woolwich and Reading Beds but if anyone has more information about the 'Wimbledon Fault' and why/how it goes through East Dulwich then please let me know.

I guess this is the same tunnel that was discussed previously on the EDF and it the reason for the lights on Forest hill road (junction with Colyton Road.

Tomdhu - are you a geologist by any chance? Not that it makes any difference.

I wouldn't mind having a job as a surveyer in the local area as the business is bound to boom for a while as people are undoubtably going to get their own surveys done.

Fortunately I live the other side of the reservoir

[SeanMacGabhann]

spot on

[phillyboy]

Can they build it above ground? :)