DHFC planning consultation - for residents of Abbotswood Road and St Francis estate

[Vik]

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, but if they extend the park, how do people who live in Abbotswood and the surrounding roads drive to their homes?

[BrandNewGuy]

Completely unclear - their two useless pictures show no direct access at all. I assume the road would skirt around between the extended park and the new 'development', whatever that's going to be.

[Ladygooner]

Perhaps they are going to build a tunnel for us to drive through!

[Vik]

So pleased it wasn't just me being dim! Anyone have any idea if the footpath route to Greendale will be compromised? As said, the drawings aren't very clear.

Maybe Ladygooner, or some sort of flyover!

[BrandNewGuy]

They said that the footpath from Greendale would be improved for proper bike and pedestrian access, but no detail.

[Alex K]

@BrandNewGuy: Thanks for this. Please PM me to obtain an e-address that I check more regularly than I do the forum, one at which I can receive updates from the proposed interest group. I have missed the Fox-on-the-Hill pow-wow tonight, which I regret, but I want to make what contribution I can to offering alternatives to developers' BIG IDEAS.

[Ladygooner]

I couldn't make the meeting last night either - can we have an update and any news of a follow up meeting? Thanks

[BrandNewGuy]

Just posted on the blog:

A lively meeting at The Fox on The Hill last night voted to form a new Friends Of group for Greendale. Work is underway to set up a constitution and to draft objectives. All present were firm in support for keeping Greendale green and for @DHFC?s future.

Updates to follow over the coming weeks. Please do get in touch if you would like to be a member - [email protected].

http://keepinggreendalegreen.tumblr.com/post/92614401974/friends-group-to-form

[Moneykelly]

I must admit, I don't understand the obsession with Greendales. The area is nothing but an in-accessable to the public, dump of an area that attracts nothing but trouble-makers and fly tipping. I personally think Hadley's plans will only improve the area and make more of the green space.

What a lot of people have failed to mention here is that they are not planning on encroaching on anymore greenspace than is currently taken up a the minute, just moving round the configuration of the site for the better - moving the ground away from nearby houses, removing the quite frankly, anti-social, local nuisance of a seven a side pitch, completing the green space connection between the park and Greendales (the existing alleyway would be moved upwards behind the bottom block of new houses and a more natural country path created), and yes building some new houses, which I think we all just need to accept ED needs!

Also, if you'd have asked the transport rep there he would have told you the existing entrance to Abbostwood Road would remain but re-modelled (in a similar way to traffic calming solutions seen in South Kensington) where the greenspace and pavement naturally blend into the existing road to create a more attractive entrance. There would be then further access throughout the new build which would drive traffic to the football ground away from residents and put it somewhere more appropriate. There will also be a new 'loop road' created for access around the new area.

It's also worth considering that these were just top line proposals to canvas local opinion, and then based on the comments (which really should be submitted to them, not debated on this forum!) they will restructure the plans, hence why there was little detail on specifics.

[BrandNewGuy]

It's not an obsession, it's concern for the future of a valuable slice of open space. Greendales [sic] is not entirely inaccessible, but I don't see why open space should only be valuable if everyone can tramp all over it, having had it tidied up and 'de-natured'. There is a wildlife issue too to be considered.

The access and ?loop road' you mention - can you point us towards some sort of map or plan that shows this?

And a forum is just that - a place to discuss issues. If people then reach their own conclusions and then contact the developers, that?s fine, surely.

I?d just add that I have no material interest in the development or otherwise of the site ? I occasionally watch DHFC, I use the footpath to walk to Sainsburys and I occasionally birdwatch in the area. It would be good if other contributors state if they have an interest, direct or indirect, in these proposals, too.

[taper]

MoneyKelly

I have sympathy with your views. Greendale could be improved hugely, without de-naturing it (indeed by enhacing its biodiversity) and linked up to other green areas such as DKH wood. Preserving everything as is is the option that most concerns me.

My interest is primarily as a DH supporter, but also a user of Greendale (dog walking).

[BrandNewGuy]

I'm not in favour of 'preserving everything as it is'. I just need to see the full impact of these proposals before making my mind up. Here are a few starters:

1. Fitting DHFC into the existing artificial pitch area is laughable ? the 'plan' allowed for full facilities (changing rooms, bar, function room, board room etc) taking up a space of about 18 feet x 40 feet on the west side of the pitch. No details about proper access.

2. What is the 'development' proposed? Houses (as with Abbotswood Rd etc), flats, a huge block? We've no idea.

3. Linking to DKH wood is a good idea, but a full wildlife/green assessment of 'Greendale playing fields' (The Metropolitan Open Land) needs to be done. At the moment, the thin strip of land by the railway tracks (which consists almost entirely of wildlife-unfriendly sycamores) is currently listed by Southwark Council as of greater natural value than Greendale playing fields ? which currently is listed as having no wildlife value.

I'd urge anyone interested to get involved in the 'Friends of Greendale' group. A diversity of views is welcomed.

[taper]

You make good points. I think any solution involves encroachment of the new stadium onto the all weather pitch. But not entirely. Improvements and enhancements to Greendale an essential aspect of any development

[Bluerevolution]

Here you go, full first proposal plans

http://files.pitchero.com/clubs/15111/dulwichhamletfcboards_114119.pdf

[ruffers]

Thank you

[mikeb]

Am I missing the point here: is the reason why the club is "not viable in its current form" as Hadley continually puts it, due to cash operating losses pre rent e.g. the cost of staging matches? Or is the rent / property cost pushing it over the edge?

[Alex K]

@Mikeb -- Or: Should the council provide a subsidy for DHFC, in the form of a gift of metropolitan open land, to allow DHFC to stay (more or less) where it is?

An alternative is for DHFC cut its coat to fit its cloth, and to say -- As we can't make a go of it here, we're folding / moving. Let the council say, God bless you and good luck.

What would happen to the land on which DHFC stands?

The document linked to by Bluerevolution, above, on p 6 contains a mention of a covenant, dated 1990, between Sainsbury's and King's College London; the latter sold the land to Sainsbury's, it seems, with the proviso ("Section 106 agreement") that restricted "use of the site to recreational, leisure or educational purposes". The present stadium was built in 1992. Does that covenant still hold? Would it be broken if housing were built on the DHFC site?

[intexasatthe moment]

What happens to MOL is determined by the Secretary of State . He/she takes into account advice from the LA . But the fate of MOL is not in Southwark's gift .

[ruffers]

mikeb Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Am I missing the point here: is the reason why the

> club is "not viable in its current form" as Hadley

> continually puts it, due to cash operating losses

> pre rent e.g. the cost of staging matches? Or is

> the rent / property cost pushing it over the edge?

And related to this if they can't be viable with the facilities they have then how can they with the tiny building proposed?

[Siduhe]

I wonder if the developer's s106 proposal will be to provide some kind of ongoing financial support for the club? I don't know if this would even be possible, but it would show they were serious about securing a future for DHFC, rather than just saying that to secure the land it's currently sitting on...

[mikeb]

I'm sure the Hadley guys are all perfectly nice people on a personal basis (at least for property developers) but I doubt they have any interest in the club whatsoever. If they have any sense, once they have profited by railroading through a major change in local environment and diminishing a local institution, they'll put the club into some sort of supporters' trust and walk away with millions.

If the problem is that the land on Greendale is underutilised, reducing metropolitan open land by moving the club to a smaller site is not the solution.

[DawnSE22]

BrandNewGuy - why do you think sycamores are "wildlife unfriendly"? One study (Alexander et al, 1996) found them to be the third joint best tree for wildlife in the UK, scoring 31 out of a possible 45 (the best were oak with 39 and birch with 34). Sycamore scored highly for foliage invertebrates (good for birds), leaf litter, pollen/nectar and epiphytes.

Ted Green an expert on tree history has even made the case that the sycamore could be a native tree!

[mikeb]

Does anyone have the background to the restrictive covenant on the site? I've drawn a blank at the Land Registry (see attached).

Also, it appears that in 2002 / 2003, Southwark was willing to support releasing the restriction. Again, any background on this would be interesting.

[BrandNewGuy]

DawnSE22 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> BrandNewGuy - why do you think sycamores are

> "wildlife unfriendly"? One study (Alexander et al,

> 1996) found them to be the third joint best tree

> for wildlife in the UK, scoring 31 out of a

> possible 45 (the best were oak with 39 and birch

> with 34). Sycamore scored highly for foliage

> invertebrates (good for birds), leaf litter,

> pollen/nectar and epiphytes.

It's not so much the tree itself, but its tendency to populate and dominate areas to the exclusion of other trees and shrubs ? witness the sides of railway lines, for instance.

> Ted Green an expert on tree history has even made

> the case that the sycamore could be a native tree!

[eastdulwichhenry]

Looking at that pitchero plan, it seems the access to Abbotswood estate will be provided by opening up the end of St Francis road. This doesn't seem acceptable to me - that road is very narrow once all the cars are parked up, and often has people coming both ways looking for parking spots, even as it is. Forcing the road to handle all the DHFC traffic as well as all the houses in Abbotswood will create a hideous bottleneck.