Palestinian PR

[StraferJack]

the more you keep saying "as usual" or "usual suspects" the harder it is to listen to your arguments - was enjoying reading that post and then at the end the facetious brush off

That de facto is important - many people at the time believe dthe Irish republic government were tacitly/covertly supporting IRA - certainly enough for a government such as Israel's to deem it hostile

The State of Israel is unique in and of itself - so there isn't that much to compare it with. It was always likely that a brand new, artificially (however justifiable!) created state was going to struggle for acceptance amongst it's neighbours. Has it's behaviour been the sort which would change that opinion? If your neigbour behaved as they have, wouldn't you want them gone?

It may be Hamas' current stated goal, but it's entirely possible to change that. Blitzing the neighbours isn't going to do it

[El Pibe]

But that's not strictly true either is it.

Egypt is an ally, Jordan doesn't care, Syria had grudging accommodation but wanted the Golan back (which incidentally is now being drilled for oil), but I reckon would gladly become an ally for Israeli help. Lebanon never had a problem, but Hezbollah sprung up as a resistance movement following an Israeli invasion and occupation.

black and white is ALWAYS a bit grey isn't it

[El Pibe]

Just to be clear, am I a usual suspect? Does that make my Keyser Zose or one of the Baldwin brothers...i forget which?

[StraferJack]

it's not just the fact that hundreds of people are being targetted in front of our eyes on television, and the lack of condemnation from world leaders usually happy to condem other countries - it's the self congratulation from Israel

What we are seeing isn't carnage but "unimaginable restraint"

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-israel-deserves-nobel-peace-prize-for-unimaginable-restraint-while-fighting-hamas-says-israeli-envoy-2004564

This from an ambassador? What would a hawk say?

All this is going on and some people seem happier to bash usual suspects and social media? Or say that both sides as bad as each other?

I really don't get it

[StraferJack]

"the simplistic anti-isareli position is, at best, simplistic and sometime smacks of something altogether more sinister......."

did we ever find out what exactly the "something altogether more sinister" was?

[El Pibe]

talking of fisking

>Hamas is the De Facto elected govt of the West Bank

It's not, its the gaza strip, Fatah is the nominal party in charge of the PA there, though Israel is the de facto gov't of the west bank.

And this argument falls into Israel's cake and eat it dealing with Hamas. It refuses to acknowledge any legitimacy it has in Gaza and will not negotiate with it, but can then argue that it's the responsible authority there when meeting out punishment.

[vgrant]

the whole thing is just so fecking depressing. I cant be arsed to make any kind of point / backhanded sneering comment. what a fecking mess

[El Pibe]

You never know, things can move quickly and unexpectedly.

I genuinely think the majority of Israelis want peace and compromise, but electorally speaking that sort of talk tends to get painted as weakness, surrender etc, so it boxes itself into a corner.

They need a sort of compromise version of UKIP do do well and the central ground in domestic politics over this issue could move just enough for meaningful negotiation and progress to begin.

I'm not holding my breath, but by the same token i won't be shocked if it happens.

- oh jeez, grocers apostrophe!!!

[Otta]

vgrant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> the whole thing is just so fecking depressing. I

> cant be arsed to make any kind of point /

> backhanded sneering comment. what a fecking mess

^^^ This

And a lot of what Quids said.

[vgrant]

The twisted thing is that if the Merican electorate decided to drop their Christian fundamentalist unwavering support for Israel, things will move very quickly- and probabaly for the better. We europeans have to be partly responsible for the setup of israel, but its ongoing maintenance is rooted in fecking blinkered selfish christian evangelists from shitsville KY.

Your gods are not the gods of love and harmony

Have a look at barbara victors " the last crusade" for a dig into the filth pit that these vermin reside

[StraferJack]

"And a lot of what Quids said."

lots, but not all? Open to ambiguity then...

[Otta]

Yep, can't be bothered getting involved with your little spats.

But tend to agree with his stance on what is happening over there.

Fed up with reading (not just on here, but including on here) people trying to show how terribly clever they are whilst not actually knowing they're born.

That's why my comments stopped (or paused) on this thread, because unless you're actually a part of it it's all just moralistic BS.

[Otta]

But that doesn't mean I don't care about the dead, and don't want the violence to stop.

[Parkdrive]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> That's why my comments stopped (or paused) on this

> thread, because unless you're actually a part of

> it it's all just moralistic BS.

Or that we care about the massacre of innocent civilians.

[StraferJack]

You think people are trying to show how clever they are?? Not knowing they are born? What does that even mean?

That's pretty lame Otta

It's another reason I'm happy to go with the Ireland analogies - because that WAS something most of us were part of and some people held the same "bad as each other/not getting involved" attitude then

When people put pressure on South Africa about apartheid - was that just moralistic BS? Or did it play some part in the end of that regime?

These situations all need external pressures to come to bear to make the participants cop on. The whole time IRA were bombing and the govt was saying "we will never talk to terrorists" of COURSE they were talking the whole time

It was that ongoing dialogue which allowed both sides to inch towards the peace process

I wish I could be so sure something like that is happening in Israel

[El Pibe]

funny, i thought i was spending my efforts trying to point out the bloody great flaws through ignorance that are behind the stances people take usually for totally unconnected reasons.

You think you have it bad, I've had to take issue with people singing amusing auschwitz songs over here it's so bad.

"Fed up with reading (not just on here, but including on here) people trying to show how terribly clever they are whilst not actually knowing they're born."

I don't even know where to start with this, but I'll stop bothering you, should hace stuck with my inital 'pointless debate' comment.

Back to important stuff, yummie mummies, just how many of the current set of trolls are ALL lawrence, and dumpgate...

For the record DaveR and i don't agree but i respect his stance and his knowledge; I know what Quids is fumbling at and I'm sympathetic, but it's often half baked*, misinformed and he can't resist those digs can he. *maybe 3/4

No right to opinion or response in any way because you don't know you're born or aren't directly involved, just wow.

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You think people are trying to show how clever

> they are?? Not knowing they are born? What does

> that even mean?

>

> That's pretty lame Otta

If you say so, you're boss.

>

> It's another reason I'm happy to go with the

> Ireland analogies - because that WAS something

> most of us were part of

Which is why you should be all too aware that it was NOTHING LIKE THIS SITUATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> When people put pressure on South Africa about

> apartheid - was that just moralistic BS? Or did it

> play some part in the end of that regime?

Hmmm, once again. NOTHING LIKE THIS SITUATION!!!!

> These situations all need external pressures to

> come to bear to make the participants cop on.

Agreed. Just not from people on the internet.

[Otta]

Parkdrive Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > That's why my comments stopped (or paused) on

> this

> > thread, because unless you're actually a part

> of

> > it it's all just moralistic BS.

>

>

> Or that we care about the massacre of innocent

> civilians.

And I don't?

[StraferJack]

"> That's pretty lame Otta

If you say so, you're boss. "

ye'see that's just snide - you call people out for not kowing they are born and moral BS and we try and engage, but you come back with "youre boss?"

Not two situations are the same - apart from the point in time were the conflic is so seemingly intractable that people say it's impossible - but there are similarities. When this all does end it will be because people start talking.

[Otta]

You call me lame, but I'm snide?

Whatever, sure you guys will sort it all out.

[Otta]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> No right to opinion or response in any way because

> you don't know you're born or aren't directly

> involved, just wow.

Wow indeed. Wow because that's not what I said.

"should hace stuck with my inital 'pointless debate' comment."

Yep, "debating" something like this from the comford of our safe lives and complete inability to actually impact on the situation is indeed pointless. That's pretty much my point. You know I love you, but when I read things like "I know what Quids is fumbling at" I am put off.

[david_carnell]

Well when he confuses Gaza and the West Bank I guess it does rather lessen any point he's trying to make.

And debate on here has been going on for as long as the forum has existed. I'm unaware of any material change on a macro-level that has resulted from it but you honestly think that means we should just say nothing about it at all? Bizarre.

[DaveR]

I haven't posted recently because there is no debate here - just disagreement, with one side endlessly congratulating itself on how clearly right it is and getting 9mock) indignant about stuff.

There is a macro question - what is the best way to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian problem, which is complicated and involves lots of other parties apart from the current government of Israel, Hams and Fatah. Then there is an immediate, micro question - what should happen right now? The answer to that is clear - a cease fire by both Israeli forces and Hamas. So yes, no more rockets is an inescapable part of that, and counting bodies on either side doesn't change it.

[david_carnell]

Surely micro issues would also include:

access to water

ceasing of illegal settlements

ceasing of boundary incursion by "the wall"

opening of borders

access to healthcare

rebuilding of infrastructure

I can't forsee any long-term ceasefire being successful without commitments to some of those (and other issues). There has to be an incentive for Hamas to give up armed resistence, no?

[Parkdrive]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Parkdrive Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Otta Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > That's why my comments stopped (or paused) on

> > this

> > > thread, because unless you're actually a part

> > of

> > > it it's all just moralistic BS.

> >

> >

> > Or that we care about the massacre of innocent

> > civilians.

>

>

> And I don't?

It's more like you're accusing the rest of us of moralistic bs and not caring about human suffering. I'm sure you do care but it does you no credit to accuse the rest of us spouting moralistic bs.