Palestinian PR

[steveo]

Of course I knew my viewpoint wouldn't be popular.

I'm off on holiday now so you can all violently agree with each other in my absence

Have fun

[steveo]

But let me throw my cat in with you pigeons before I go.

My guess is that if Hamas owned Israel, within a couple of years it would be just as successful as all the countries it borders

[Parkdrive]

steveo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Of course I knew my viewpoint wouldn't be

> popular.

>

> I'm off on holiday now so you can all violently

> agree with each other in my absence

>

> Have fun

Where you off to the West Bank?

[Parkdrive]

steveo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Of course I knew my viewpoint wouldn't be

> popular.

>

> I'm off on holiday now so you can all violently

> agree with each other in my absence

>

> Have fun

We only violently DISAGREE with your garbage

[DaveR]

To be fair to steveo, one of the reasons that there has never been a lasting consensus in Israel in favour of a proper peace deal rather than 'security' is that there has not been a Palestinian consensus either; Hamas rocket attacks are not the first self-defeating tactic adopted by a Palestinian group who can leverage political support by being more radical than the 'sell-outs' who are doing a deal. That's been the story for the last thirty years or more, and even more so as it has become clear that no Arab state, individually or collectively, has either the will or the ability to remove the Israeli state by force (which was always Plan A, let's remember). Anybody who thinks that reading history leads to a neat black-white approach where Israel is the oppressor and the Palestinians are the helpless victims needs to read it again, if possible without moving their lips at the same time.

[El Pibe]

weirdly i would have thought that now wsa a genuine window of opportunity to do something.

For the first time in almost 70 years Israel is waaaayy down the list of priorities in pretty much all arab/persian countries.

Leaders saying "ooh look over there a bad israeli penny" isn't fooling anyone any more.

With the pressure off and the Palestinians' usual sponsors either suppressing their own, caught up in civil wars, fallinf to pieces or negotiating normalisation of relations with the US (of which pulling support for Hamas would be a very big and valuable negotiating chip, wouldn't that be a good time to talk?

[Parkdrive]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To be fair to steveo, one of the reasons that

> there has never been a lasting consensus in Israel

> in favour of a proper peace deal rather than

> 'security' is that there has not been a

> Palestinian consensus either; Hamas rocket attacks

> are not the first self-defeating tactic adopted by

> a Palestinian group who can leverage political

> support by being more radical than the 'sell-outs'

> who are doing a deal. That's been the story for

> the last thirty years or more, and even more so as

> it has become clear that no Arab state,

> individually or collectively, has either the will

> or the ability to remove the Israeli state by

> force (which was always Plan A, let's remember).

> Anybody who thinks that reading history leads to a

> neat black-white approach where Israel is the

> oppressor and the Palestinians are the helpless

> victims needs to read it again, if possible

> without moving their lips at the same time.

Nobody has said there is a "neat black-white approach", steveo is clearly a reactionary and should be treated with the disdain he deserves.

[El Pibe]

"Anybody who thinks that reading history leads to a neat black-white approach where Israel is the oppressor and the Palestinians are the helpless victims needs to read it again, if possible without moving their lips at the same time."

Ho ho, I see what you did there, clever.

Of course tactics are only self-defeating if the person you are using them against is willing to be brutal.

Bombs, mortars and murder ultimately worked quite nicely for the IRA, but then we didn't bomb catholic areas with 500lb bombs or invade the republic, kill tens of thousands and install a client buffer sate where torture and murder was the norm (mind you we'd already done that previously but I digress).

The war of 1948 was one characterised by some pretty nasty ethnic cleansing. Assymetric tactics followed which ultimately failed. Hence why Arafat finally gave up, he realised that Israel were simply never going to budge.

He thought Oslo was in good faith, and again in fairness may well have been but for the death of Rabin. The following road map I don't thin kever intended anything but a carve up.

You can admire Israel for winning its wars that it needed to win, you can grudglingly admire them for the willingness to pursue brutally cycnical policies to ensure their safey and survival, but if you think they ain't oppressing and the palestinians (and lebanese) aint oppressed then your the one that needs help with reading.

[Parkdrive]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Anybody who thinks that reading history leads to

> a neat black-white approach where Israel is the

> oppressor and the Palestinians are the helpless

> victims needs to read it again, if possible

> without moving their lips at the same time."

>

> Ho ho, I see what you did there, clever.

>

Alternatively failing spectactularly to be clever

[Otta]

"steveo is clearly a reactionary and should be treated with the disdain he deserves."

No he's not, and El Pibe calling him an idiot is beneath El Pibe quite frankly.

Forget the vast majority of Palestinians and Jews for a minute. Think only about the guys in power in Israel who are killing all the innocent Palestinians, and about the Hamas guys who are killing a handful of people with their stupid rockets.

Swap them around.

Do you think for a second that Hamas wouldn't rain hell down on the Jews if they were the ones with the firepower?

Yes Israel are behaving in a disgusting manner at the moment, but I don?t think steveo has said a thing wrong about Hamas. And the truth is that if Hamas stopped the rockets, Israel would stop the slaughter. Of course tings would still be hugely unsatisfactory, but people wouldn't be dying every day. Hamas may as well turn their rockets on their own people right now, because every time they fire one they're pretty much guaranteeing a load of deaths on their own side.

And I'm not pro either side by the way. I, and frankly every one of you, are way too far removed from it to really be able to say one side is right and the other is wrong.

Although Israel kind of pissed on any moral highground they may feel they once had.

[Otta]

You can go up to the big bully in the playground and think "if I keep hitting him, eventually he'll go away", then you hit him.

And he knocks you the fuck out.

So you get up and hit him again.

Then he knocks you out.

This continues.

Eventually, you'd probably think "getting knocked out sucks, I think I'll probably stop hitting him, and maybe try to talk it out.

Unless of course you believe that God is on your side, and eventually you'll deliver the knock out punch.

But that's bollocks and it won't happen.

[El Pibe]

he said we're friends of Hamas, that was idiotic so the moniker was well earned.

By swapping Hamas and likud around you achieve nothing. You're just saying one arsehole with power and willingness to use it is as bad as the the other one if the tables are turned, not helpful.

I loathe Hamas, especially as what you describe is pretty much their aim. In 2006 Hezbollah decided to have a pop too, and Israel did disproportionate response there too. OK Israel lost the ground war, but it was a ill thought pointless, nothing incursion anyway.

But the lebanese learnt the lesson and I'm sure it was civilian pressure that have stopped hezbollah's hand since; hard lesson learnt (albeit thanks to a war crime, but hey).

Thing is the lebanese can come and go, they rule themselves (albeit in a weird dysfunctional balkanised country in danger of being sucked fully into Syria's civil war), they can make their own mistakes, they're not having their land nicked and have to be degraded daily.

Given that in 66 years, and particularly in the last 13 things have only got worse for the Palestinians, and the only glimmer of hope from a peace is to be a non country within another country where they will be permanantly disenfranchised, then what do you suggest, especially given the constant cycle of anger due to the disporportianate killing of the populace on a regular basis.

I also loathed the IRA but I always understood why they were at it, again, especially once the civil rights movement was met with bullets (do you remember the days when 13 deaths was considered outrageous and make a govenment look brutal?)

[El Pibe]

On your first point otta, I've a friend here who used to be a hardcore brit hater. Sang the rebel songs with fervour, wept about Bobby Sands.

But he's a bright chap, reads history voraciously and had an epiphany when he realised that had the tables been turnbed the Irish would of course have abused power just as much as the British. That it's power that brutalises, not ethnicity.

So he shed all that bullshit he used to carry with him, the hatred, the judgmentalism based purely on who someone is, the sins of the fathers type stuff.

He even thinks, that when Blair's not around (well anywhere but northern Ireland), that we're a force for good in this world.

I long for the day when we can say the same about Israel, I genuinely do.

This isn't about blame or black and white, it's about how does the one with the power get to a point where it's not acting like a cunt the whole time!

[DaveR]

"weirdly i would have thought that now wsa a genuine window of opportunity to do something."

I can't remember who wrote that the conflict could pretty much be explained by the sentence "when I'm weak, how can I compromise, when I'm strong, why should I compromise?"

I guess the black-white comment was more aimed at the moronic Chomsky quote above, but it remains the case that the Israeli 'oppressors' live in fear to a far greater extent than, for example, Brits did even at the height of PIRA activity, and that fear is reflected (and exploited) in Israeli domestic politics. Ironically, it would probably be easier to deliver some kind of workable two state solution if Israel wasn't a functioning democracy.

And on the Irish comparison, the brutal truth is that the peace process was only possible because the Republicans were able to deliver real peace despite not being any closer to a united Ireland, and the elected government were able to do a deal with terrorists with little or no political fall out.

[Otta]

"By swapping Hamas and likud around you achieve nothing. You're just saying one arsehole with power and willingness to use it is as bad as the the other one if the tables are turned, not helpful."

Wasn't intended to be helpful, it was just meant to show that there are no goodies and baddies here, just a lot of innocents on both sides that don't want all this (although the innocents on the Israel side have a far better life than their Palastine counterparts).

Given that in 66 years, and particularly in the last 13 things have only got worse for the Palestinians, and the only glimmer of hope from a peace is to be a non country within another country where they will be permanantly disenfranchised, then what do you suggest, especially given the constant cycle of anger due to the disporportianate killing of the populace on a regular basis.

I'm not the most clever person in the world, but I am not stupid enough to think that I could suggest anything that would sort this mess. Nor should anyone else on here quite frankly.

[Otta]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I long for the day when we can say the same about

> Israel, I genuinely do.

>

> This isn't about blame or black and white, it's

> about how does the one with the power get to a

> point where it's not acting like a @#$%& the whole

> time!

Absolutely.

But the whole IRA comparrison only goes so far.

This is a holy war, these people think they are on the land that God gave to them as thier rightful home. Not even Mo Mowlam would have sorted this shit out.

Edit for typos.

[El Pibe]

true theyre not exact comparisons, but then an end to disenfranchisement was the primary goal. Back to dignity isn't it, a political say so where you live, equal access to jobs without institutionalised discrimination.

Also the long game for unification may or may not occur (i suggest tah it'll happen within 50 years) but the IRA realised that a military enforcement of it was a no go.

I still think that a one state solution is really the only way forward, but whatever the 'jewish' characterisitc of that state would be it would really have to offer genuine equality for all to function.

I've often half joked that it's best hope would be to join the EU ;)

[El Pibe]

"This is a holy way(sic)"

I really don't think it is. Sure, there are nutters on one side who think it's all their land by divine right and nutters on the other taking advantage of bollocks like jihad and matyrdom, but there is huge historical precedent for peaceful coexistence in the area.

It's about land, and water, and power and money and self determination and politics, the usual stuff that people hit each other over the head over. The religion just makes the fringes more intransigent and gives everyone a neat us and them.

[El Pibe]

"Nor should anyone else on here quite frankly."

Why not, the solutions are blindingly obvious, getting anyone to embrace those solutions is indeed a whole n'other ballgame.

1) remove stupid preconditions to talks

2) Get the two sides to both accept genuine compromise

3) Remove military sponsorship from the big supporting states who are still fighting a proxy war, absolutely no more weapons from either of them.

This won't stop the people who hate each other from shooting each other with little weapons, again as we've seen in n ireland, but the odd murder a matter for the police has to be prefreable to bombs and rockets doens't.

Now if you can just make that happen ;)

[Otta]

"It's about land, and water, and power and money and self determination and politics, the usual stuff that people hit each other over the head over. The religion just makes the fringes more intransigent and gives everyone a neat us and them."

Well exactly! I'm not suggesting the main players are all about religion, they're fighting over the stuff you mention. But if you can claim to have God on your side, it gives you a hell of a justification in the eyes of those that believe in such things.

[Otta]

Okay, anything "likely to happen" that would sort this out then ;-)

[El Pibe]

In the short term i can't see anything changing at all.

Over the next century or two much will change, the concept of the State itself is already shifting, so it could simply be a moot point once citizenship itself is a privatised concept.

Then population pressures, climate change, once oil runs out noone will give a shit about the middle east anyway. This arab-israeli conflict will just be another footnote. Doesn't help anyone cowering in Gaza or a Tel Aviv bomb shelter today mind....

Maybe a real US-Iranian detente, I think this could change the backdrop considerably thinking about it.

[TE44]

Veolia enterprise will, in a couple of weeks in Cheshire be managing the disposal of Some of Syrias

chemical weapons. There is International outcry in there involvement with Israel, along with many

other issues over the years, this company has been shown to believe it is above the law.

http://www.dumpveolia.org.uk/

The problem with people coming together for or against a cause, often creates a situation where extreme

views are argued over and important information is not heard/given.

[Jah Lush]

DaveR Wrote:

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>

> I guess the black-white comment was more aimed at the moronic Chomsky quote above.

Hmmm.... Hardly moronic. But if that's your opinion you're welcome to it.

Death toll at midday today 100-0 in favour of Israel.

[northlondoner]

steveo Wrote:

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> Stop the rockets is a start. Hamas couldn't

> organise a piss up in a brewery. They'd get my

> sympathy if they had a voice that wasn't one long

> scream of violence. How do they help their people

> if they don't face facts?

>

> They won't eradicate Israel so get real. Talk.

>

> Where are their friends apart from this forum?

Sounding a little deranged here Steveo