Palestinian PR

[uncleglen]

If it is true that Hamas prevented the UN school from evacuating after a warning from Israel and consequently 15 people died then totally new depths have been plumbed imvho

[El Pibe]

It amazes me that people are always willing to believe this shite.

ALL the IDF have said is they're investigating the circumstances around this, so if they're unable to say what they did how they're able to speak for Hamas' operational details I don't know.

In Lebanon hezbollah were blowing up entire neighbourhoods of southern Beirut, Bosnia the bosniaks were shelling their own markets and bread queues.

It's the same smear propoganda aggressors use because it sticks.

See also Franco using photos of its own massacres to accuse the republicans. See also german 'confessions' of the massacre at Katyn in the soviet war trials.

I can't find anything anywhere that claims this, so well done for spreading vile propaganda uncleglen.

[El Pibe]

NewToED, you're absolutely right that other conflicts don't seem to garner the same commentary.

Part of it stems from the focus of media, THe millions dead in the various conflicts around the congo happened a very long way from anywhere logistically, certainly not the sort of conflict that modern news teams like to cover from the safety of a nearby Hilton.

Some conflicts just aren't as photogenic, bombs going off in Built up areas, air raid sirens amidst apparent normalcy, war as entertainment.

I refer you to the ever relevant day today

The specifics of the anger though are I think mostly to do with the intractability of the conflict, a frustration that Israel isn't living up to the ideals of western liberal democracy that it claims to adhere to, noone expects anything but brutailty from a brutal dictator (though we know that liberal democracies are as prone as anyone else to go round shooting fuzzie wuzzies, theyre just not supposed to have empires anymore).

But i think the main reason is because america takes an interest. If american poliitics weren't so caught up in it i doubt the media and hence the people around the world would take nearly as much of an active interest.

[david_carnell]

NewtwoED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To offer a thought re casualty ratios, imagine a

> situation where an individual intent on causing

> you harm fired ten shots at you, but happened to

> miss with all shots. If you fired back once and

> killed your aggressor because you happened to be a

> better shot (or possessed a more accurate weapon)

> would that be unfair?

>

> Surely intent to destroy is the same irrespective

> of how effectively it is enacted.

I'm not sure I agree. If someone was shooting at you with an air rifle, it's going to hurt but unlikely to do any real damage in 99% of cases. In response you pull out your RPG and blow everything to shite. It's not a proportionate response.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DrtrX9rZl-j4&ei=9g_SU6HIHrCO7Qbsv4DIBg&usg=AFQjCNGR8COZaywmRoESGOaL5kTjZXxF8Q&bvm=bv.71667212,d.ZWU

[Parkdrive]

Israeli tanks shell a hospital, bravo, you have plumbed new depths only the nazis and pol pot could have dreamed of. Obviuosly no lessons learned from the holocaust.

[LadyDeliah]

Ok here's an idea.

How about I come and take your house, cos I had a vision last night telling me it's my gift from God, I force you and your family to live in the garden shed and when you throw a brick at me, I blow the shit out of your shed with weapons given to me rich friends in positions of power.

I then take your neighbours house, and a few more down the street and jam them in your broken down shed, around which I've constructed a massive wall to stop you escaping, funded again by my rich friends.

If you try to get the police to give you your houses back, my rich friends shut them up and I bomb the shit out if your shed, so you know who is boss.

And so it goes on.

Everytime you try to get justice, or fight for your property back, I kill your friends and family. And I keep stealing other people's houses and incarcerating their occupants in your shed until I have realised my vision of East Dulwich being my God given holy land.

[El Pibe]

Not especially useful PD.

I might surprise you that we killed over 50 thousand french in the taking of normandy.

To be fair to the IDF I think they're genuine about trying to minimise casualties, compare that to Assads random barrel bombs.

Mistakes happen in war, prior to this laser guided age friendly fire is thought to amounted to between 20% (WW1) to 15% (ww2) of causualties

I just don't think they should have been put in this shitty situation in the first place.

[vgrant]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> vgrant Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > you know you are playing with fire when you

> dare

> > to quote Noam on here ( Noam chomsky, otherwise

> > know as the bleeding heart liberal LIAR

> chomsky,

> > gencide denier and fascist dictator apologist

> blah

> > blah blah )

>

> He is not a genocide denier - with regard to the

> Holocaust, he expressed his profound disagreement

> with various European laws (in France and Germany)

> that make it a criminal offence to 'deny' the

> Holocaust. That's a very different thing.

That is my point. His spat regarding Srebrenica has more resonance with reference to the situation being disucssed.

[vgrant]

delightful little cynical swipe here

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/18/netanyahus-operation-stupidity/

there is a twisted symbiotic relationship between the warring parties going on innit

[vgrant]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It amazes me that people are always willing to

> believe this shite.

>

> ALL the IDF have said is they're investigating the

> circumstances around this, so if they're unable to

> say what they did how they're able to speak for

> Hamas' operational details I don't know.

>

> In Lebanon hezbollah were blowing up entire

> neighbourhoods of southern Beirut, Bosnia the

> bosniaks were shelling their own markets and bread

> queues.

>

> It's the same smear propoganda aggressors use

> because it sticks.

>

> See also Franco using photos of its own massacres

> to accuse the republicans. See also german

> 'confessions' of the massacre at Katyn in the

> soviet war trials.

>

> I can't find anything anywhere that claims this,

> so well done for spreading vile propaganda

> uncleglen.

The best way to smear your enemies is to demonise them - thisn is hardly new - we went to war for ( well, amongst 1001 other reasons) due a images of the hun bayoneting babies and raping nuns back in 1914. See also the recent unsubstantiated tales of russkie seperatists laighing and looting the crash site in the Ukraine. remove what makes them human and its easier to hate 'em. and kill'em

[El Pibe]

great article

[Parkdrive]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not especially useful PD.

>

> I might surprise you that we killed over 50

> thousand french in the taking of normandy.

>

> To be fair to the IDF I think they're genuine

> about trying to minimise casualties, compare that

> to Assads random barrel bombs.

> Mistakes happen in war, prior to this laser guided

> age friendly fire is thought to amounted to

> between 20% (WW1) to 15% (ww2) of causualties

> I just don't think they should have been put in

> this shitty situation in the first place.

Whatever way you cut, Israeli actions are barbaric, no better than the acts of barbarism visited on them over the centuries, they should know better as a result, clearly not. Not useful? Nor is shelling a hospital.

[El Pibe]

To turn things aside for a second, british forces in afghanistan went to great pains to minimse casualties, but we still bombed innocent compunds on bad (or wilfully malign) intelligence, still killed civilians in the crossfire.

After centuries of visiting imperial suffering for our own gain and once even having had a catastrophic experience in that very country, shouldn't we have known better.

The past rarely informs the present particularly usefully, and its the politics thats wrong, war being a failure of politics of course.

Isreal is a country in a volatile region with many enemies, the holocaust informs this by saying 'never again will we be in a weak position that this may happen'.

But I think it's got its solutions all wrong to the situation it finds itself in.

Quids said that religion is the problem. Maybe true, but time and again we find that the enemy of religious conservatism is education and prosperity. For instance all the Iranians I know couldn't give two hoots aboiut Israel, and Iran is a society nicely balanced beteween urban sophisticates and rural conservatives, sanctions only serves the forces of conservatism and I'm glad to see that dialogue is moving forward and away from conflict, whereas if Netanyahu had had his way they would have bombed and the conflict would be further deepened, the bombing eliciting the election of a more hardline government.

The key to ending this is investment in universities and businesses, in giving people access to jobs and international markets, as well as obviously food and water. Everybody wins, money far better spent than making Lockheed Martin's shareholders happy.

[Otta]

Great post NewtwoED.

And great quote Loz, reminds me of the old classic "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

[Loz]

Another good article in the Gruin, this time from a guy with both Palestinian and Israeli passports.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/24/israelis-palestinians-losers-conflict-suffering-rights

[uncleglen]

EP- I did say 'if it is true....' and it was from Sky news fyi. Some people on here are very quick to think that Hamas are squeaky clean-don't get overheated in your keffiyeh this weather!

[BrandNewGuy]

uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Some people on here are very quick

> to think that Hamas are squeaky clean

By 'some people' you mean 'no-one', I think.

[StraferJack]

israel first sent a text to journalists claiming that the school was destroyed by Hamas rockets falling short

they later withdrew that and said it was Israeli fire - but it does rather undermine the claim that Hamas refused to allow people to leave - who would they have got the warning from if as Israel first claimed, it was Hamas rockets falling short

as BNG says abosultely NOONE is saying HAMAS are squeakly clean.

[localsilly]

I'm not the emotional type, particularly, but this made me shed a tear yesterday.

WARNING - this is very graphic - but this is the reality. 200+ children dead so far.

again - This is shocking and graphic - read the link before clicking!!

http://www.boycottisrael.org.uk/4-year-old-sahar-salman-abu-namous-with-half-his-head-blown-away-by-an-israeli-shell/

edit - link got shortened, 'boycottisrael.org.uk/4-year-old-sahar-salman-abu-namous-with-half-his-head-blown-away-by-an-israeli-shell/'

[nashoi]

Interesting summary of the more recent negotiations and how they went wrong.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits

[Loz]

That is one long summary. Can anyone summarise the summary?

[northlondoner]

Captain Marvel Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Would everyone feel better if there were more dead

> Israelis?

>

> You know, to even it up

Don't be stupid . If you can't keep up with the grown ups get back to your comics , Marvel .

[Otta]

Okay, Benjamin Netanyahu is just taking the piss now. If your objective is collapse tunnels then just collapse them.

And yet Ismail Haniyeh continues to say "The destruction of stones will not break our will and we will continue our resistance until we gain freedom.". I'm sure the average man and woman if Gaza is over the bloody moon to hear that.

[Parkdrive]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Okay, Benjamin Netanyahu is just taking the piss

> now. If your objective is collapse tunnels then

> just collapse them.

>

> And yet Ismail Haniyeh continues to say "The

> destruction of stones will not break our will and

> we will continue our resistance until we gain

> freedom.". I'm sure the average man and woman if

> Gaza is over the bloody moon to hear that.

At the risk of repeating myself, what would you suggest they do, accept the sub human treatment dished out by the Israeli state? Offer no resisitance against the illegal occupation of their land and illegal settlements? Far too glib.

[The Minkey]

Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths about Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html?1406545029&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067