Ethical shopping/ tax avoidance

[JDR]

Ok, several times this week people have told me they have bought the precious rainbow loom bands on amazon. I 've said we don't buy from them due to their tax avoidance. Does anyone know of shops ( any variety of shop) that is definitely paying their dues or not? Is there anywhere I can find this out?

Would like to be consistent, and when people ask for alternatives be able to give good suggestions. I don't just mean for toys, Starbucks is still on my do not use list...

Edited due to terrible typing

[Mick Mac]

What tax avoidance? Whats a rainbow band ?

[*Bob*]

These Precious Things can be bought locally from Just William.

It's all quite sweet really. Makes a pleasant change from demands for iPhone apps.

[sanity girl]

You can get them from Mr Green's toy shop in Dulwich Village - ?1.50 for refills, ?3.75 for the set (but you don't actually need the set with loom - just look on youtube for instructions)

[Gray]

By tax avoidance I assume you mean the completely legal free movement of capital between EU member countries as one of the four founding principles, yes?

[Jeremy]

Gray Wrote:

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> By tax avoidance I assume you mean the completely

> legal free movement of capital between EU member

> countries as one of the four founding principles, yes?

Being legal doesn't make something ethical.

Besides, we all have our own individual moral compass... if a company is doing something we don't like, the sensible thing to do is to stop using them.

[Gray]

My point is that is should not even be referred to as tax avoidance. Amazon et al are not avoiding anything. They are using the laws enshrined in the EU Founding Principals. If you think those laws are unethical, then blame the source.

The bleatings of Margaret Hodge and the loss-making Guardian seem to gloss over those facts, though...

[Otta]

Nonsense. They are avoiding paying tax by (legally moving it). May not be illegal, but they've spotted a loop hole and are using it to avoid paying tax here. That is tax avoidance.

I use Amazon all the time by the way.

[JDR]

Thanks for the suggestions :-)

[Alan Medic]

As a matter of interest how many people have paid someone 'cash' to avoid VAT? I have. It's great being ethical if you can afford it.

[speedbird]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> As a matter of interest how many people have paid

> someone 'cash' to avoid VAT? I have. It's great

> being ethical if you can afford it.

Agreed!

[StraferJack]

Talk of "affording" ethics misses the point of what ethics is

It isn't a product you buy off a shelf

It's doing the right thing even at personal cost (monetary or otherwise)

You paying someone in "cash" is up to you. Onus is on the recipient to do right thing.

It's the old " would you pick up a suitcase with a million quid in it of you knew doing so would kill x number of people" chestnut isn't it

[Otta]

Can I choose the people and can you make it 5m?

No point killing a bunch of strangers for a two bed terraced in ED.

[*Bob*]

Where's the suitcase?

[????]

Absolutely. Ultimately this is where 'we' have power and social media can actually work well - not rules/regs/politicians interfering with markets - but, you know, "us the people".

Don't shop at amazon if you think they avoid Corporation tax, and you think that matters...and let them and everyone know.

Don't bank with Barclays/Llyods/RBS, etc if you reall think the bankers caused this mess

Don't use retail businesses that don't pay a living wage if you believe in that

[Gray]

"Article I-4 of the Constitution guarantees the free movement of persons, goods, services and capital within the Union (the famous "four freedoms") and strictly prohibits any discrimination on grounds of nationality.

http://europa.eu/scadplus/constitution/objectives_en.htm

Yup, pretty well hidden "loophole" there.

[Alan Medic]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Talk of "affording" ethics misses the point of

> what ethics is

>

> It isn't a product you buy off a shelf

Oh yes it is.

>

> It's doing the right thing even at personal cost

> (monetary or otherwise)

And if you can't afford it?

>

> You paying someone in "cash" is up to you. Onus is

> on the recipient to do right thing.

Crap. The recipient usually suggests it to keep the price down.

>

> It's the old " would you pick up a suitcase with a

> million quid in it of you knew doing so would kill

> x number of people" chestnut isn't it

No. Nothing like it.

[Jeremy]

Gray, you are confusing tax avoidance with tax evasion.

Lots of people avoid paying tax within the law (almost every single IT contractor, for a start). It's legal, it's commonplace, but nevertheless it's wrong in most peoples eyes.

[Gray]

Sorry, no.

Tax Evasion is what it says on the tin, and is breaking the law as written today.

There is no such thing as "tax avoidance within the law". Thats a non sequitur.

The law as written today allows free movement of capital as mentioned. If it wrong in most peoples eyes as you state, then the criticm should be directed toward the people who make the laws, not the people who act upon those laws.

I assume you pay as much tax as you lawfully must do, and no more? Or do you pay whatever spare cash you have left each year to the taxman as a free bonus? After all, thats ethical. Think of the teachersandnurses...

[StraferJack]

"I assume you pay as much tax as you lawfully must do, and no more? "

I receive frequent calls from financial companies (working for a city bank) asking me how much tax I pay and when I tell them they tell me how much less I could pay. I tell all of them to bugger off

I'm not well off, I earn a decent salary but could do with more money. But it's not right or ethical for me to legally pay less. This country needs everyone to pay as much as they can to get back on it's feet

To pay for (look you're being "funny!!!") teachersandnurse etc the country needs income to increase (austerity is sold as necessary but really it's idealogical)

You want to make money in this UK market, use tax benefits paid for by less well off taxpayers, get the benefit of UK education and infrastructure? Then pay the money. or one day you will run out of customers because they won't be able to afford it

[Gray]

So, yes, I am guessing that you do pay as much tax as you lawfully must do, and no more.

[StraferJack]

The comparison to be made is I could pay a lot less, legally

I'm not aware of a mechanism to opt in for more. Voting for parties who promise higher taxes maybe?

Amazon and co pay armies of people to find ways to pay less tax than the "normal" rate

[El Pibe]

I may be wrong but the problem isn't that these companies are paying 0 tax, just not paying it in the countries they earns it from. Swelling dublins coffers whilst denying Londons.

Some may call this karma.

[Otta]

Going back to the Morals are good if you can afford it thing, I tend to agree.

I have filled in MANY DLA claims in my time for people with visual impairments, quite a few with sight no worse than mine. I am confident I could get myself DLA (or whatever it is now) but I never have because I don't feel I really need it, and despite fancying the extra cash, it just feels ethically wrong.

But then I use Amazon all the time because they're ofren the cheapest option and my spare cash is now more limited than it has been since I was about 22.

I know what they do yet I choose to ignore it and continue to use them.

I guess the point is we all draw our kine somewhere, and our personal financial situation plays a huge part in where that might be. If I had more free cash I may well pay out a bit more to ease my conscience further.

But despite using them, I would never try to deny that Amazon actively practice tax avoidance. Legal or not legal, they are selling stuff here and then not paying the tax here for that income. That is avoiding paying tax, the fact it's legal is almost beside the point.

Pay your tax here or move it over there and perfectly legally AVOID paying it. The key word is avoid.

[DaveR]

"There is no such thing as "tax avoidance within the law". Thats a non sequitur. "

This is just wrong. Tax avoidance within the law is actually defined in the uk because there are specific disclosure rules that apply.