PCSO's stopping and fining cyclists (on ED Road)

[bawdy-nan]

From the Dept for Transport website

Q. Are children allowed to cycle on pavements?

A. Whilst there is no exemption to this law for children, the police have always used common sense and discretion in exercising their powers over children cycling on the pavement. Very young children should not be expected to cycle on the road and we would not recommend any child does so until they have received cycle training. Enforcement of cycling on pavements is usually dealt with by a fixed penalty notice, which cannot be issued to anyone under the age of 16.

Rather bizarrely the answer seems to be chidlren aren't suppsoed to be on teh pavement but as the enforcement is dealt with by issuing fixed penalty notices and they may only be issued to people over 16 chidlren may as well break the law as they won't be reprimanded.

this is also interesting:

On 1st August 1999, new legislation came into force to allow a fixed penalty notice to be served on anyone who is guilty of cycling on a footway. However the Home Office issued guidance on how the new legislation should be applied, indicating that they should only be used where a cyclist is riding in a manner that may endanger others. At the time Home Office Minister Paul Boateng issued a letter stating that:

"The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of traffic and who show consideration to other pavement users when doing so. Chief police officers, who are responsible for enforcement, acknowledge that many cyclists, particularly children and young people, are afraid to cycle on the road, sensitivity and careful use of police discretion is required."

Almost identical advice has since been issued by the Home Office with regards the use of fixed penalty notices by 'Community Support Officers' and wardens.

"CSOs and accredited persons will be accountable in the same way as police officers. They will be under the direction and control of the chief officer, supervised on a daily basis by the local community beat officer and will be subject to the same police complaints system. The Government have included provision in the Anti Social Behaviour Bill to enable CSOs and accredited persons to stop those cycling irresponsibly on the pavement in order to issue a fixed penalty notice.

I should stress that the issue is about inconsiderate cycling on the pavements. The new provisions are not aimed at responsible cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of the traffic, and who show consideration to other road users when doing so. Chief officers recognise that the fixed penalty needs to be used with a considerable degree of discretion and it cannot be issued to anyone under the age of 16. (Letter to Mr H. Peel from John Crozier of The Home Office, reference T5080/4, 23 February 2004)

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

bollox - I cycle on the road but my daughter cycles mostly on the pavement quite long distances cos I don't want to have to explain to her dad that she is in bits after being hit by a car. I don't own a car so we use our bikes as our main means of geting from A to B.

She does the easy bits of road so she can learn how to cycle on the roads, but as soon as it gets too busy for her to cope I send her back on the pavement and I don't give a sh!t what anyone says, I'm not going to stop her cycling or cycling on the pavement when it's too dangerous to go on the road.

Fine me, bang me up, whatever, I'm not going to stop her until she is fully confident and has enough experience.

edited to explain that the 'bollox' was not in response to the post immediatly before mine!

[Sue]

I completely sympathise Chav, but what happens if your daughter knocks someone down who is walking on the pavement?

Edited to say: How old is your daughter? When I was at school (admittedly centuries ago), everyone who cycled did a cycling proficiency course and took a test.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

She has brakes and knows how to use them

[jonsuissy]

Whilst in Japan last year I was a litle freaked to start with that the pavements were full of cyclists.

However I soon realised that that both Cyclists and Pedestrians gave each other space and got on with it.

It is true that the pavements were a little wider than say Lordship Lane but I'm sure we can do the same here.

We do need to encourage people of all ages to cycle don't we.

Yes, we need more cycle lanes

Yes, cyclists should respect non cyclists

Yes, pedestrians should respect non pedestrians

Let's reach out for the stars

[Izodia]

A cyclist hitting a pedestrian hurts...I know I've had the bruises. But it is only bruises or if unlucky, a broken bone. That's a lot less than a car hitting a cyclist.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

She is 9 and loves cycling - something I hope she will keep up.

My son still cycles everywhere and he's 22 even though he passed his diving test at the age of 18.

All the miserable tw@ts trying to push nervous cyclists onto the roads should get out of their cars and stop taking up our road space.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Can I be a miserable twat and not have a car to get out of or road space to give up?

Truth is when I'm bimbling around the parish I'm usually ok with cyclists on a pavement, but what surprise, some of them don't show the same grace and get mardy with me if I'm in their way. Well the deal is they shouldn't be there, it is illegal and I was being nice but if someone wants a fight about it I have the law on my side

So by my thinking Chav, your daughter would, if she behaves as you describe, not be a problem to me but your tone and that of a few other posters on here suggests that the whole issue isn't open to debate and that life is hell on the roads so you are going to make hell for pedestrians (I generalise of course but still...)

[aliceb]

I think all the recent road works has increased the amount of pavement cycling.

Something that should be mentioned is that there are parts of London (not many round our way, granted) where pedestrians and cyclists share the pavement. It is not always that well signalled - at best it looks like cyclists are somewhere they shouldn't, at worse pedistrians get scared because they aren't expecting things on wheels going around them. A lot of this is down to bad (or rather lazy) attempts at providing cycle paths, and really doesn't help cyclist/ pedestrian relations.

It annoys me when cyclists cant be bothered to dismount (or stick to the roads) too, but there are occasions when a bit of responsible pavement cycling is the best way to stay safe. Ditto red-light jumping (though I'm always way too much of a goody two shoes to do that).

[AcedOut]

Bikes on the pavement are fine, but jump off it first!

[Siduhe]

I'm no fan of cycling on pavements and I don't do it myself - however, what gets people upset is an ignorant minority of cyclists who behave with little or no consderation for other road and pavement users (i.e. the people who knock down pedestrians (regardless of how little injury they cause!), run red lights when the little green man is showing, or the charming individual I saw a couple of years ago who unclipped himself from his racing bike and kicked a dog out of the way on the pavement as he went past).

However, you can just as easily substitute "car drivers", "dog owners", "pedestrians", "neighbours" or pretty much anything you like in that context. I've seen car drivers come very close to killing cyclists just to gain a few metres on them, which is just as idiotic and potentially a lot more serious.

I support a crackdown on the ignorant minority in whatever form, but I'd much rather that we (as a society) made that kind of behaviour instantly unacceptable and that everyone took responsibility for showing a bit of consideration to others, not leaving it to a bunch of PCSOs.

[Sue]

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>>

> All the miserable tw@ts trying to push nervous

> cyclists onto the roads should get out of their

> cars and stop taking up our road space.

xxxxxx

I have - that's why I have been almost knocked over by a cyclist on the pavement :))

[Zebedee Tring]

Cycling on the pavement was a problem a long time before the current roadworks.

Cyclists can't use roadworks as an excuse for cycling on the pavement. If they hit roadworks, then they should dismount and wheel their bike along the pavement before rejoining the road.

Or perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned

[sillywoman]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> . . . the problem is this. I have a five

> year old daughter who likes riding her bike in the

> park. In order to get to the park, we cycle. I

> will introduce her to cycling on the road when

> she's ready, but I think now might be a bit too

> soon. I guess I could stick the bikes in the car

> and drive to the park, but I'm guessing you

> wouldn't favour that either. Or she could cycle

> round the garden, but the view gets a bit

> monotonous. So we cycle, together, on the

> pavement. And I try and make sure that we don't

> endanger, or hopefully even inconvenience anybody

> else.

>

> And that's the point really. If people are

> conscious of their environment and essentially

> considerate of others, problems are minimised. If

> you are a cyclict on the pavement you should have

> the mindset that this is not primarily your space

> - you should make room for pedestrians, not the

> other way round. If you are a cyclist on the

> road, you unfortunately often have to remind

> drivers that the road is not just their space, but

> you should also follow the rules. I've already

> admitted on another thread that I sometimes go

> through a red light on my bike, but only if I'm

> not endangering myself or anybody else. That

> doesn't make it OK, it just puts me in the camp of

> people who sometimes break the rules whilst

> generally respecting the principles behind them -

> so be it.

>

> Drivers, cyclists or pedestrians are all capable

> of being stupid/reckless/inconsiderate etc. But

> as part of being considerate you should also be

> aware of the potential for harm from what you are

> doing, and penalties (and enforcement strategies)

> for breaking the rules should be similarly

> proportionate. Fining cyclists for riding on the

> pavement without any aggravating features, and as

> part of a random 'swoop' at a particular junction,

> seems disproportionate to me, but that's not to

> say it shouldn't ever happen.

Oh my goodness I wish I'd written this, and so eloquently too. Put me down as saying all that . . .

[SeanMacGabhann]

I agree totally with the 2nd two paragraphs of Dave R's post, sillywoman. I could have done without the first paragraph being quite so facetious mind you - esp. when he knows full well there are a selection of parks in easy walking distance, after which cycle away

Comparing drivers and cyclists on the road to cyclist and pedestrians on a path is a false comparison tho - the roads are designated shared spaces. Footpaths are not. But as I've said before I'm generally of the mutual back-scratching mindset but the aggression shown my many (let's call it a minority for arguments sake) when on a path is "disproportionate"

I have no argument with the accusation that pedestrians behave badly on the roads either. But I don't believe jaywalking is illegal in this country yet? If it is then I wouldn't expect anyone fined to bemoan the fact. We might not agree with the law but we can't complain if we are caught breaking it - we know what it is. (and that's not goody-goody - by all means take your own risks and choices just as I do - just please stop complaining if caught)

[Klaus]

I don't think anyone has moaned about being caught have they? I imagine most cyclists welcome the current clamp down because it should help reduce the number of incidents that winds people up so much (yet not that much of a problem statistically).

Longer term this should help to reduce the vehement anti-cyclist feeling that crops up so easily whenever cycling is discussed by the general public.

[beef]

This morning I noticed (while the pco's were hidden behind a large van fining those terribly naughty cyclists) three, count em, three vehicles jump the reds! I don't mind the cyclists jumping red so much, a quick kick to the leg or a gentle shoulder barge will deal with them, the real menace is the motorized vehicle driver! Why aren't they being dealt with? Is it to difficult a problem? Why does every driver consider amber to mean accelerate accelerate accelerate? And another thing, whats the point of a cycle lane when all the traffic is bl##dy parked in it? (6)

[SeanMacGabhann]

Beef

Aren't they being dealt with by traffic cameras? Heaven knows enough of them complain on phone-ins about getting a notice through the letter box weeks later?

Klaus - If Rockets wasn't complaining about exactly that earlier in the thread I'd had to see him riled...

[SeanMacGabhann]

Beef

Aren't they being dealt with by traffic cameras? Heaven knows enough of them complain on phone-ins about getting a notice through the letter box weeks later?

Klaus - If Rockets wasn't complaining about exactly that earlier in the thread I'd hate to see him riled...

[Klaus]

True enough! However, he was riding through a park that i cycle through regularly and i've never seen any no cycling signs there. It's just like the big path around the outside of Dulwich Park really. He had a right to be miffed imo.

[SeanMacGabhann]

and being asked for photo ID was well out of order too IMO

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

In defence of Battersea Parks Police, I encountered a lovely one when I received a parking ticket. There were extenuating circumstances and he advised I appeal and quote his number as witness. I was let off the fine.

[hoser]

When it was warmer I was cycling through Battersea park each day to work (along with hundreds of others) and it never occurred to me that you couldn't cycle there. There are no cycling signs on the smaller paths, so it seems extremely odd that Carriage drive would be off limits. Hell, I've even seen taxis driving along when it seems closed to all other traffic.

[joobjoob]

Southwark guidance, safety on the road leaflet says all children under 8 should cycle on the pavement.

Cycling with my children, on the road I have been shouted at by car drivers who tell me to get on the pavement. We still go on roads which are quite, but cycle on the pavements to avoid rat runs where drivers generally are impatient and ill tempered ie. Crystal Palace and Northcross - Barry road. I think its a good compromise.

As for breaking the rules the debate is out about light jumping in areas where there is no provision for the safety of cyclists on the road, by road marking or driver behaviour. Sadly I know of three cyclists who may still be alive, if they had jumped a light ahead of HGVs. If you look at the stats very few cyclists are killed jumping lights - the vast majority are killed while using the road properly and correctly if not timidly.

[2Sheds]

Time for comic relief:-

Monkey Dust - The Cyclists

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