What the hell is happening to our babies?

[microbite]

I'm sorry, I know that this forum is for lighthearted and happy go lucky threads, well mostly, I don't know about you but I am getting increasingly extremely traumatised by what these supposed human beings are doing to their babies, so traumatised I can no longer even bring myself to read the articles properly without sinking into the depths of despair, even animals don't treat their babies like that, the story today about little baby P just had me weeping, the story the other week about that animal snapping the baby's spine had me sinking into a pit of despair, my god, I am against capital punishment but I have to say, for these kind of incredible acts of attrocious barbarism, cruelty and severe neglect, my heart is swaying. Can't say how much this makes me despair at mankind, I'm sorry I just couldn't keep this to myself.

And as for those cretins who are supposed to be in charge of keeping them safe, well they need to be locked up and the key thrown away, makes my blood boil.

[SeanMacGabhann]

It's not new macrobite - humanity always has had a small percentage which is "broken" for want of a better word

Personally, when these stories crop up - if the perpetrators are found and detained I tend to no move on as pring of the gory detail feels like I'm complicit. No value can be gained (other than a small band of professionals) from dwelling on it - but to suggest it is modern society going to hell in a handcart is way wide of the mark.

[microbite]

I mean I despair at the section of our society who behave like this, I didn't mean to generalise, but I do have to say, the other people involved who must have been aware of what was going on, neighbours, family, friends etc. are guilty aswell for not speaking up or failing to report visible signs of these children being seriously abused or neglected, so to me the burden of guilt lies on their heads as well. Yet these attacks are increasing, and people are getting away with it, something is very wrong somewhere!

[ratty]

It's more to do with modern communication and modern detection than modern morality. These stories crop up more.

However, I am totally sickened by these stories!

[SeanMacGabhann]

Microbite I'm sure we all share your reaction to the events but you can't say these attacks are increasing. As ratty says you might be reading more about them but that's a completely different thing

On the story itself, the BBC were making much of the fact that teh child was on the "at risk" list - but the reality is that if services were to pull in everyone onthat list the country would be in uproar about the nanny state and invasion of privacy. It's a really really difficult balancing act and inevitably there wil be instances like this. Whic isn't to endorse complacency but making decisions in an emotional state isn't very wise either

[cdonline]

I don't quite get the leap from saying that things have gone to pot and we live in a barbaric world and saying that capital punishment, which as a form of legalised premeditated killing is beyond me. And I can't see it coming back anytime soon.

What makes me uncomfortable about the Baby P case, is the way the media immediately jump on the professionals involved as being the ones responsible. I would like to know about what drove the adults involved to take such desperate actions. Surely then, we can understand the problem and start to face the issues. Simply demonising them removes further from our understanding. Whether that is a history of abuse, mental health issues, poverty or learning disabilties etc, etc.

[lozzyloz]

I agree incidents like this are shocking. Hearing the details (once is enough) moves you to tears and anger at the perpetrators but don't see this as a reflection of society going down the toilet. These poor people aren't mentally balanced, probably come from abusive backgrounds and have a very low IQ. That's not to say its OK but simply to point out they're not like you or me. A very tiny minority and I don't think it's a growing one. Just tragic.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Speculation Alert:

I'm willing to bet that more than one of the adults involved were abused as children as well. And didn't receive much in teh way of support or solace then or since

Sepculation Off

That wouldn't condone what has happened either btw.

[Sue]

I don't read news stories which I can see from the headlines are going to upset me.

Unless you are in a position to actually do something about these things, which is unlikely, and certainly you can't after the event, they just provide material to prey on your mind and make you disturbed and unhappy.

Cruelty and anger and all the rest of it are part of the human condition, and the news media will always report this stuff because people find it more "interesting" (on the whole) than good news stories.

These things have always happened, always will. But - mostly they don't. Let's be thankful for that.

[kford]

An awful story which brings tears to my eyes every time I read about it.

[Cassius]

And a lot of people are abused as children and don't go onto make the same mistakes and to abuse in turn.

And you have to be more than just stupid to stand by and watch a man use your child as a punchbag and to torture him in this way.

[microbite]

Cassius Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And a lot of people are abused as children and

> don't go onto make the same mistakes and to abuse

> in turn.

>

> And you have to be more than just stupid to stand

> by and watch a man use your child as a punchbag

> and to torture him in this way.

Casius I completely agree with you. I am sorry but being abused as a child does not make it even slightly inevitable, or understandable to then go on and become abusers yourself, it makes it even worse as you know how it feels to be filled with terror and fear and you would know how that would effect your child,there is just waaaaaayyy too much sympathy for the perpetrators nowadays. I know people who have been abused in childhood yet swear they would cut their own wrists/throats if they ever thought to inflict that on another human being, and get real p'd off with the well he/she was abused as a kid excuse, so that why he/she did it.

[Jah Lush]

These wicked and evil crimes are absolutely horrific. How on earth anyone can harm a little defenceless, helpless child is beyond me. I tend to side a little with Sue when she says she'd just read the headline rather than upset herself by reading the whole story.

You say it "traumatises" you reading about it but aren't you also rubbing your own nose in it by creating a discussion in a thread on these appalling crimes.

[SeanMacGabhann]

errr.. noone is extending ANY sympathy with the perpetrators, as I've already made clear. Nor do I like insinuation that I have any sympathy with them

Nor am I suggesting that all abused children go on to become abusers. But if you REALLY want to get under the skin of this thing and find out how best to prevent in future then you have to start addressing some of the root causes. And if you look at the perpetrators in most cases they do have a history of being abused.. so there would appear to be SOME causal link there surely?

[Moos]

I agree entirely with Sean, and I think he made it perfectly clear in his first post that he had no sympathy with the abusers, nor was he condoning or excusing their actions. We all have choices.

I also agree with Sue - I find it very difficult to read these stories, and question why it's necessary (for example) to reproduce images of the poor baby. I have been avoiding stories about him as much as possible, particularly as for some reason I am finding it extra upsetting that he was the same age as my son.

However, the reality of the situation is that children are horribly abused every day in this country. I don't really know what we as individuals can do to stop it, but here's one local organisation which we can support Kids Company.

[microbite]

You misunderstood, my comments were not directed at Sean personally, I did not say he was too sympathetic, what I meant was and probably could have gotten across better was the fact that "the system" be it judicial, local council, social services or whatever seem to have more sympathy with abusers than the victims, and make excuses for them, and they don't seem to be doing much.

I was agreeing with Casius's post.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Microbite

Cheers for the clarifications. I'm still going to have to take issue with the "system having sympathy with the perpetrators". The system would have to have known that she already was one of the perpetrators for them to have taken sides. A mother of a child was lying to the health visitors and police about who was living in the house - what we know now is very different, bust, as ever, hindsight has a wonderful clarity

[microbite]

"system having sympathy with the perpetrators

".

To clarify further, I mean people like the Judges etc. who pass out extremely lenient sentences to paedoes, child abusers and people who cause harm to children, they barely get a smack on the wrist, that is abuse in any way shape or form.

[Keef]

What makes me uncomfortable about the Baby P case, is the way the media immediately jump on the professionals involved as being the ones responsible.

Amen to that!

I could have thrown a brick at the TV when listening to the reporter on (I think) ITV last night. It's unfortunate that it happens to be the same local authority as the Victoria Climbie case, but them interviewing the head of the council and calling for sackings makes me sick! At the end of the day, the report and recommendations that came from that case were a good thing in theory. In reality however, local authorities don't have the money they need, so they are doing exercises in performance management in order to show that they are doing the work in order to tick boxes and hopfully win another star and a few more quid from the government (never understood why the best performing councils are given most money, but there you go).

What this means in reality is that the workers do not have the time to be out there doing the visits they'd like to.

Also, social workers are not medically trained, and to expect them to go and "notice" physical signs of abuse (other than obvious bruising to the face or something like that) is not on.

"the system" be it judicial, local council, social services or whatever seem to have more sympathy with abusers than the victims, and make excuses for them, and they don't seem to be doing much.

Did you get that idea from the TV? Or the newspaper maybe?

What has happened here is bloody terrible, surely noone would dispute that, but all this blame at the feet of social services makes me bloody angry, because a lot of good people work really hard to prevent this sort of thing, and they are in an uphill battle through no fault of their own.

[SeanMacGabhann]

EDITED to reassure Microbite that I understand why you are upset by these things and I'm not trying to be hostile to you as I'm basically on the same side, excepting a few generalisations!

You don't seriously think this lot are going to get a lenient sentence do you?

And making a sweeping statement like "pass out extremely lenient sentences to paedoes, child abusers and people who cause harm to children, they barely get a smack on the wrist" is a bit of a generalisation surely? Apart from one or two headlines in the usual suspects, do you have data to hand to back that up? I susppose you could talk about The Pete Townsend case as an example but from everything I've read on the matter I don't see him as a threat to children and think that was handled ok. then there is the panic/mob thing which sets in where innocent lives are affected - The singer of Massive Attack was wrongfully accused of posessing material. Hell, imagine if someone posted on this forum that [insert name here] was a danger to children. Even if it was removed quickly there are enough people who would say "no smoke without fire. can't be too careful" and you can imagine the sort of thing that would happen thereafter

[david_carnell]

Not to mention, Keef, the numerous cases of abuse that are no doubt prevented by social services every week that go unmentioned. Well put, mate.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Cross posted with Keef's post - but Keef's was better

[cdonline]

As is pointed out ad nauseam, most of the cases of paedos are usually from a member of the family or a close friend.

Sending someone to prison may help society in its desire for handing out tough sentences, but we know the courts have to take into account a number of factors. Will it cause more disruption to the family? Is the person the main bread winner? Is the person a danger to society? etc, etc.

How many people are we actually going to lock up? Keep going until it's hundreds of thousands?

[Cassius]

I think a lot of the problem is that the social services are damned if they leave the child with their (abusive) parents and damned if they take them into care. I would not do that job if it kept the roof over my head - that amount of responsbility for whatever money they earn (probably not much).

However at the end of the day a small child has died horribly at the hands of the people that SHOULD have looked after him and there is a natural human need to blame someone, anyone. The system let the child down and questions do need to be asked so that this doesn't happen again (although I am sure it will).

At the same time for every child murdered in this way - how many old people are subject to abuse in their own homes also by the people that they love and trust (as well as in care homes)?

[giggirl]

I have tried really really hard not to have a knee-jerk reaction to this. But I've failed. I tried to ignore the media coverage but I saw some at lunchtime and I had to take myself off to a meeting room and lock the door so that I could weep. I want the people who tortured and killed this child to die a horrible and slow death spitting blood. I truly hope that when they get to prison the other inmates feel the same way.