New Charter School on Dulwich Hospital Site

[cmacnew]

I'm sure there is probably another thread on this but how do we find out more about the Habs bid to gain the full picture. We live within a few mins walk of the hospital site and with two pre school kids are definitely keen to find out more.

[simonethebeaver]

Hi

This link to the Habs website allows you to register support. They are trying hard to upload the brochure they have giving more information, but there's an IT glitch in process. It should appear soon! They will also be holding a public meeting very soon and the date will go up on the website, and I'm sure on here too.

http://www.haaf.org.uk/New-East-Dulwich-Secondary-School-1

[littlek1cker]

The open meeting for parents to hear about Charter's proposal is tonight. Details are at the top of this thread. Please do come along if you want to find out more.

[littlek1cker]

Thank you to everyone who came to the open meeting last night. We were really pleased with the turnout and it was great to get such an enthusiastic response. Thank you to those of you who signed up to support us. We had lots of useful feedback which we will be digesting as we finalise our proposal. Two things came out particularly loud and clear: overwhelming support for the as-the-crow flies admissions policy we are proposing; and lots of opposition to a Harris primary school on the hospital site.

If you weren't able to make it, we will be holding further events in the coming weeks. I'll post details here when I have them.

[hpsaucey]

I"m assuming thats 'overwhelming support for the as-the-crow flies admissions policy' from those who attended? An idea of numbers would be great.

I'm personally absolutely against this as an admissions policy as it will probably basically cut out anyone from 'my side' of the park - Nunhead - from the opportunity to send their children to a non-faith co-ed school. I have to say that there are a lot of people from Nunhead/Peckham Rye (and presumably others slightly further away but well within the radar of a new school using other admissions criteria) who have supported the campaign for a new school and you will be effectively penalising them and dashing their hopes if this is decided by the Charter campaign as their admissions policy.

[i should also say that I am a lapsed member of the Steering Committee organised by James Barber but also that this post reflects my personal view only... ]

Yours. Dismayed.

Helen

[mariababe]

Think approx. 40 people in total so we are talking 20...hardly reflective of the community (how many of the 40 were charter parents or in the catchment already?)

Fair admissions (banding) gives the wider area much more of a chance to get into the school, rather than buying into an area

[clux]

I agree with the need for fair banding. We live in Nunhead and aren't in catchment for any secondary schools. I have a daughter in year 4 - do I really have to move to get her a place in a local school??

[Soulking]

Hi mariababe, just curious, if you don't think that the meeting was the best way to get peoples views, what else do you have in mind? I live on the far side of east dulwich, probably about 1.5km away from the center of the hospital site so probably don't have much chance to get my kids there either; but at least as the crow flies is straightforward so everyone knows where they stand - I now know to make other plans.

Of the people I spoke to that evening (about 10 sets of parents) only one already had children at Charter.

[hpsaucey]

Soulking Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi mariababe, just curious, if you don't think

> that the meeting was the best way to get peoples

> views, what else do you have in mind? I live on

> the far side of east dulwich, probably about 1.5km

> away from the center of the hospital site so

> probably don't have much chance to get my kids

> there either; but at least as the crow flies is

> straightforward so everyone knows where they stand

> - I now know to make other plans.

> Of the people I spoke to that evening (about 10

> sets of parents) only one already had children at

> Charter.

Doesn't the fact that the campaign for a new school has over 600 families signed up from all over the local area (i.e. NOT just within spitting distance if the hospital) say a fair bit about parent's views? They want this school for their children too. Is 20 out of 40 representative of this 600? As the crow flies effectively cuts them out.

[intexasatthe moment]

Have Charter specified which admissions criteria they plan to use if their bid is succesful ?Same as existing school ? Shortest safe walking distance ?

[jcn]

I agree with you that provision for other areas is an issue - both from my side of East Dulwich and from what others have said here its an issue in SE15 as well. I also am concerned that the new site is so close to the existing Charter, and therefore will provide for a similar group of people. However, I also recognise that there are very limited number of sites available, so if its a choice of Dulwich hospital or nothing - I'll take Dulwich hospital.I raised this point at the meeting - but don't expect there is anything anyone can do about this.

Personally I don't particularly like Kingsdale's random allocation within bands. I like the idea of a school being about the local community. I like the idea that kids can walk to school, and be close to their friends.

intexasatthe moment - I think they are still getting feedback from people before they make their bid. From the meeting on Thursday the view seemed that most people preferred as the crow flies - not safest walking distance. Not sure where this 20 out of 40 comes from - from what I can remember there was no vote.

From an earlier post I think it mentions that there will be further meetings for people to give their views.

[motorbird83]

Intex, they have proposed distance as the crow flies.

As most schools operate banding combined with distance, it's better that any new school does the same otherwise the banding doesn't work as effectively. I believe DofE have specific guidance / recommendation on this

[kristymac1]

The issue as far as I can tell is that the hospital site is 'preferred' simply because it is the only sizeable site in the wider area suitable. The need for a co-ed secondary school isn't in that immediate area (being so close to Charter). No-one yet has mentioned the possibility of measuring distance/banding from a specific nodal point - the nodal point being measured from the point by where there is greatest need/black hole. Unless that is figured into the application criteria, I will be withdrawing my support for a secondary school on a site for which the immediate proximity is already catered for.

[intexasatthe moment]

Nodal point - sounds like an excellent solution !

[toffeese15]

Yeah, I am in favour of greater provision, but this wouldn't really make much difference to me or many others, who are extremely unlikely to fall within the catchment area of either Charter 1 or 2.

It seems strange to be situating a school a very short distance from an existing secondary school and employing identical criteria for admissions. Effectively you are doubling the options for people who already live within the catchment of area of the original Charter school. I can see that it will reduce the pressure for places on Charter 1 and widen the catchment area for both 1 and 2, but it will do nothing for those who live in Nunhead, Peckham Rye, Bellenden areas who wish to have greater choice than the Harris academies.

[littlek1cker]

The Charter is holding an open day for Year 3 and 4 parents and their children next Tuesday 1st July, 4.15-5.30pm at the Charter School. It's a great opportunity to see the existing Charter school and find out more about the proposed new Charter School East Dulwich. There will be a tour of the school and Q&A session on the new proposal. If you missed our last open meeting, please do come along to this one. Details in the flyer attached.

[clux]

I agree with toffeese15. Identical admission policies mean this school is of virtually no use to anyone not already living near to Charter. On these grounds I wish to withdraw my support for the Charter bid and will be fully supporting Haberdashers.

[bonaome]

clux Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree with toffeese15. Identical admission

> policies mean this school is of virtually no use

> to anyone not already living near to Charter. On

> these grounds I wish to withdraw my support for

> the Charter bid and will be fully supporting

> Haberdashers.

But if there's 12 forms of entry instead of 6 across the two schools, you'd expect the effective "catchment" area to expand quite significantly, would you not?

[littlek1cker]

The Charter new school working group has not settled on an admissions policy yet and we still welcome your views but at the moment I think we are likely to opt for 'as the crow flies'. We are keen to plug the local black spots in terms of shortage of places and those seem to be both in East Dulwich and up around the Dog Kennel Hill Estate. We are also actively considering a nodal point system. Unfortunately whatever the admissions policy ends up being, this school can't meet all the local demand for places.

Personally, I worry about the fairness of banding. There have been a couple of independent reports in the last couple of years which have found evidence that banding policies tend to result in the most vulnerable children being underrepresented in the school because to band you have to sit a test so you can be put into the most appropriate ability band. The most vulnerable children are less likely to keep the appointment to sit the test. I think it is important that any new school is a truly inclusive community school and for me, banding doesn't sit very comfortably with this.

[edanna]

It would be interesting to see how Charter students are spread out geographically - I suspect there are a lot more in the Red Post Hill direction because there is housing going right up to the gate whereas in the ED direction there are playing fields, Greendale, Sainsbury's and Dulwich Hamlet. I think it can't be true that a school on the hospital site admitting by distance would just encompass kids already within the Charter catchment when most of ED isn't close enough to Charter.

[Otta]

Where do kids from the Grove Tavern end of Dulwich tend to go to secondary? Genuine question.

[LondonMix]

Can you please provide a link to the research you are referring to? The Sutton Trust (a think-tank with a mission to promote social mobility through education) and the LSE have recently published a research paper showing banding achieves a more comprehensive intake and recommends it in urban areas:

http://www.suttontrust.com/our-work/research/item/banding-and-ballots/

Students don't have to sit a separate test to be put in bands by the way-- it can based on the primary school progress testing which all students have to sit as a matter of course. You have the flexibility to address the concern you raise by using the primary results. Its a very straight-forward solution.

Lastly, most admission policies with banding do not band SEN pupils. SEN pupils along with children in care get priority admission as normal and only non-vulnerable pupils are placed in bands after that.

littlek1cker Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Charter new school working group has not

> settled on an admissions policy yet and we still

> welcome your views but at the moment I think we

> are likely to opt for 'as the crow flies'. We are

> keen to plug the local black spots in terms of

> shortage of places and those seem to be both in

> East Dulwich and up around the Dog Kennel Hill

> Estate. We are also actively considering a nodal

> point system. Unfortunately whatever the

> admissions policy ends up being, this school can't

> meet all the local demand for places.

>

> Personally, I worry about the fairness of banding.

> There have been a couple of independent reports in

> the last couple of years which have found evidence

> that banding policies tend to result in the most

> vulnerable children being underrepresented in the

> school because to band you have to sit a test so

> you can be put into the most appropriate ability

> band. The most vulnerable children are less likely

> to keep the appointment to sit the test. I think

> it is important that any new school is a truly

> inclusive community school and for me, banding

> doesn't sit very comfortably with this.

[intexasatthe moment]

LondonMix ,Lewisham secondary schools ( all except Habs ) use the data from primary schools but I don't know of any secondary schools in Southwark that do .

Harris and Kingsdale applicants have to sit another test ( NVR which as you've previously pointed out is felt to offer more " stable " results than the primary school ones ) to determine banding .

I can see that having to sit a seperate test may disadvantage some sections of the community ,but like you I'd be interested to learn more detail . Though possibly a discussion here isn't terribly relevant to the thread .

[LondonMix]

Agree intexasatthe with everything you said.

Each admission policy has pros and cons and a trade off of priorities. I'd be interested to hear both Habs and the Charter's strategy and thoughts in more detail on the specifics of what they think will best serve the community and why.

The NVR is perhaps a better measure of true ability (and so fairer) but has the downside of requiring a separate test that some pupils (particularly poor pupils) may not take. I think the issue of vulnerable pupils is a non-issue as most schools don't band children in care etc.

Let's see what both schools propose and parents can make an informed decision from there which application to support based on this and other key policies on which the schools may take a different stance (specialisms, planned facilities including shared facilities with other schools, pastoral care).

[intexasatthe moment]

This is an extract from LondonMix's link to The Sutton Trust research . It's a quote from people interviewed during the course of the research but clearly the view that having to sit a seperate secondary school based test might disadvantage some is a view held by those who work in education .

"The use of multiple banding tests within the same area was criticised by some interviewees

for several reasons. First, it was suggested that separate banding tests could limit access to

schools for some pupils. Thus, a headteacher of an oversubscribed school explained that the

school would ?definitely not? use its own banding test:

By using a common test across all of the primary schools it means that we have the

fairest way possible to ensure that every child has the opportunity to access schools

of their choice? and by having a standard admission procedure across all schools it

means that actually I?m doing my part to ensure that that?s the case. [Headteacher,

oversubscribed school]

This headteacher believed that a separate banding test could present an obstacle for some

potential applicants. This view was also taken by the Admission Forum in Area A which had

then worked hard to ensure a single banding test could be used by all schools and

subsequently that all pupils should take that test within primary schools. So, some

respondents took the view that separate banding tests could discourage some potential

applicants from applying to a school and that it could be the most disadvantaged pupils who

would be the least likely to take multiple tests. "

The report does conclude that there is " a very strong case for " pupils to be only required to sit one banding test and for that to be valid for any school using banding to which they apply "

It also concludes "Our findings suggest that, in striving to achieve balanced intakes, banding for the purposes of

admission is not a panacea. It can however contribute to creating more balanced intakes than

would otherwise be the case. "

It gives explanations of local ( as per Lewisham ) and proportionate ( as per Harris ) banding methods and their effects so is worth a read if you're into that stuff .