defaced ukip poster

[Loz]

I think it is going to be a bit of a double hit, LD, at least in the Euros. A good proportion of UKIP voters come from the traditional Labour working-class base. Greens will pull away some of the students types and the middle-class lefties.

But I think all three 'big' parties are going to take a hell of a hit on Thursday.

[Green Goose]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> Nope. Ukip has come to prominence because people

> like you can look at that party, talk about how

> poor the other parties are, not mention the odious

> stench of racism, homophobia and basic

> incompetence coming from ukip and decide you like

> them

>

> This is on you

That's pure knee jerk. I didn't say I liked them and didn't say I supported their policies. I just made an objective analysis as to why UKIP has emerged as a force in today's political environment.

That apart, the labels of racism and homophobia you attach to UKIP are unjustified and just another example of smearing by the two established political parties. Only two you ask? Yes, the LidDems are yesterdays protest party. Gone and irrelevant.

[edcam]

I loathe UKIP. I would urge anyone to deface their posters. But buggering up a wall and pavement just makes you look like a dick.

[StraferJack]

Green goose

If you say

"And some of you attack UKIP! Vote for UKIP and give these despicable career/establishment politicians a bloody nose!"

Don't whine when people disagree with you and come over all "i don't support them, I just want to give the other parties a warning"

[Earl Aelfheah]

Loz Wrote:

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> A good proportion of UKIP voters come from the traditional Labour

> working-class base. Greens will pull away some of

> the students types and the middle-class lefties.

I'm sure UKIP are taking votes from all of the three main parties, but the Conservatives are likely to lose out the most of the commentaries I've read.

[Earl Aelfheah]

This is interesting:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/20/labour-tory-poll-ratings-farage-attacks

[Zebedee Tring]

People, especially poor people, should read the 2010 UKIP manifesto, if they can get through it without feeling decidedly ill. People have concentrated too much on the EU and immigration provisions rather than on the low tax sections.

[StraferJack]

except the manifesto, in Farage's own words, is garbage

expect a more horrific one when they have wind behind their sails

[Zebedee Tring]

Can you imagine if Milliband or Cameron had said that their last manifesto was garbage and that they hadn't even read it- they would be crucified. But Forage gets away with bloody murder. Perhaps he was tired when he said this (irony alert)

[StraferJack]

I agree with what Loz is saying, objectively

But in the real world, most of the people I encounter aren't open to persuasion, or argument

It's a very gut-level, emotional "flood, sheeple, swamped, EU, immigration" repetitive cycle of thought

Many are saying it's Labour/Con/Lib fault for not getting a compelling message across to voters but I'm not sure that's 100% the reason

I think this emotion has been dormant but untapped for eons - what is different now is 21st century media, speed of communication and because Farage is no Griffin, the colossal airtime (compared with comparable parties in terms of votes, such as Greens) afforded Farage has led to a level of credibility being bestowed upon him that wouldn't normally have happened

So the people who have been cowed by "PC" discourse feel more confident in speaking up.

[StraferJack]

On a more macro level - how does the UKIP candidate for croydon expect to perform if he calls the town a dump?

[Otta]

I know, people just aren't used to that level of honesty from their politicians.

[LadyDeliah]

I was uncomfortable with the attacks on Farage as soon as they started because it was giving him additional airtime and making him look like a martyr.

The people who rightly hate what he stands for would have been more productive highlighting their odious policies rather than attacking him.

Years ago when I was active in the Green Party, I tried to pursuade the London Greens to try to attract the disillusioned and marginalised non-voters, but the main party were more interested in paying for expensive software to chase the same voters the other parties were trying to swing their way.

Ignoring this huge potential voter base has allowed Farage to come to prominence and if UKIP get anywhere near power, it will be the current parties' fault for allowing a huge amount of people to feel disengaged and then ignoring them.

[StraferJack]

"The people who rightly hate what he stands for would have been more productive highlighting their odious policies rather than attacking him. "

I hear this a lot, but if you put the odious policies to people directly and they just wither ignore/deny/agree with them

[El Pibe]

It's a classic knee jerk for bad times though isn't it.

Once everything is looking economically rosier people tend to stop caring as much, and you only get BNP/UKIP/English Democrats (bwwah hah hah hah) making headway at the localised sharp end of economic/immigration upheaval.

Perhaps the major parties have the not unreasonable attitude that it's just a storm you have to weather every now and then.

[PokerTime]

As little as 300,000 votes can swing a national election. Truth is that all the parties work on gaining the floating vote. It's already a given that we swing between being a slightly left and slightly right of centre country politically. So the main parties seek to occupy that ground, and then battle for the rest with a few key concessionary policies. One of the reasons why New Labour for example got elected, is because it could occupy the centre ground as Conservative Thatcherism swung out to the right.

Farage is a rabble rouser, and we are in an age where the media loves rabble rousers. We've been here before, when the BNP picked up a few seats here and there, the media hype and rhetoric was the same. The fact remains that most people who vote, still vote for one of the three main parties.

[LadyDeliah]

That's a dangerous tactic, El Pibe. The increase in Nationalism globally is scary (anyone checked the new Hindu nationalist President of India?).

With diminishing resources, capitalism consuming itself and future increases in climate change based migration, I can't see this economic/political storm dissipating. Scary times ahead in my opinion.

[eastdulwich_dweller]

Can I just ask - totally honestly - what are these "odious policies" everyone keeps speaking off? I've never voted UKIP but it seems every time they are mentioned people think they are the BNP or member of a fascist right wing party? Is that what UKIP is?

So far all I know is:

They aren't really a party ready for government as they don't have wider policies on defence and Government budgetary spending. So most people are voting UKIP as a protest vote like they voted for the Lib Dems because the two main parties so obviously don't care what most people want and are pro-corporation due to donations from the wealthy.

They don't want too many immigrants into the country who don't have a good education so they want to control who comes in and out from Europe - the same policy we had in the 80s/ early 90s. i.e They want people from Europe to have the same rights as people from say india for china to enter Britain.

They want local communities to decide how to spend money in their regions rather than central government.

I'd be grateful if anyone here can point out, objectively, what is odious about this? For instance, if we follow through and let in people from any country into the UK, say the philippines, unskilled labour and tradesmen rates would fall through the floor and a "lower class" would be formed with no ability to have what most people would equate to a british lifestyle (i.e families living in one room, no weekends off, no money on leisure activities, few luxury purchases). I don't think anyone wants that. Economically, the average global wage is $2/ day, given that most people can do most jobs if we create a larger pool labour, salaries will fall, that's just obvious. Not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or another job which provides essential services for the wealthy.

I'm probably not going to vote UKIP but I find it fascinating how people just believe the media hype, either that or I'm missing something.

[red devil]

Apt time for a repeat showing...

 

[Ruskin]

The offending (or offensive) poster is now down and the pavement cleaned - replaced, ironically, by an ad for Travelodge.

[El Pibe]

it's not really media hype is it.

It is true that on balance more media appears intent on exposing Farage, which is fairly fruitless, he's not odious, he's just a classic little ENglander with whose views on business, government and welfare would probably be far removed from those he's tryng to court.

The policies aren't odious either because he's done the sensible thing of not having any.

And yet we see the people it attracts, time after time 'oddballs' who are either dismissed figuratively or literally because of the opinions they spout.

And the campaign has also appealed to rather a nasty narrative "they are after you and yours" that whilst not necessarily out and out racist has repurcussions that we all know how it will be interpreted by many.

Which is why the quibbling about it being all about the EU, and having Indian poster girls (who quit due to the racist slant the party has taken) is just that, pedantic quibbling masking that deeper truth.

That's the odiousness people refer to, and heaven help us if they ever get real power.

But the risks are too great to allow this crappy, gut fear, pull of the political conversation to actually get Britain out of the EU. As I said, real independence is a pipe dream anyway, and frankly westmisnster, bruxelles, both feel disengaged and remote from me, but at least with both it serves as a great check/balance mechanism on some of the baser instincts demonstrated by our last coule of westminster governments.

If people genuinely think there is something wrong with the power balance between national and supra national and of the direction the EU is moving, and of course there is a case for that, then I'd vote for a party that want to negotiate within the framework and move it in a new direction.

Leaving with a 'we'll sort it all out in the morning' seems self-defeating and hugely dangerous to me.

[grabot]

EP, a good post, more balanced than most, although I would argue that all political parties have their fair share of oddballs: Marxist heritage is tolerated in Labour MPs without reference to Stalin and his purges. Questions of whether UKIP voters are open to persuasion have to be balanced against the relatively rabid response that they get from opponents. Immediately branding someone racist, or carrying out acts of criminal damage are not likely to provoke a calm and reasoned debate. My perception from speaking to UKIP supporting folk is that they plan to vote for UKIP in the European elections, largely as a protest against loss of sovereignty, and then revert to the mainstream parties in the national elections. The press are guilty of prodding UKIP supporters. Google "lazy British workers" and see how many hits you get from sites of all political persuasions, is it not feasible that these kind of attacks could engender a certain level of insularity?

This give an interesting perspective http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100271887/our-political-masters-are-horrified-by-ukip-trouble-is-the-voters-arent/.

I have been harangued by individuals telling me that I absolutely must not vote UKIP because to do wo would be to cede control of Europe to the Russians. Madness in my mind. Incidentally, I have no intention of voting UKIP, but the tactics that are being employed to deter people from voting UKIP are likely to fuel contrarianism in many people.

[LadyDeliah]

UKIP have abandoned their previous manifesto because Farage said it's drivel and have not produced a new one for this election, but here is their public stance on a few issues. It's also worth noting that Farage was quite a senior member of the Tory party until 1992, so it's no wonder their policies are all on the right.

They support tax cuts for corporations and the super-rich, privatisation, the destruction of the social safety net, additional protection for landlords, the deregulation of firearms, the militarisation of the police, the construction of dozens of new privately operated jails, discrimination against gays, removal of human rights, anti-environmentalism, workfare (free work for employers paid for by taxpayers), an energy policy built on heavily subsidised nuclear power plants and fracking, the pushing of "free trade" onto the third world which allows our corporations to destroy local economies and exploit their resources.

UKIP say that tax should be as low as possible (now want a single low flat rate), abolition of inheritance tax, reduction of tax and business costs and council taxes to go down. So services decimated, or will we borrow to stop the OPA's from starving to death?

Against gay marriage - 'my right to be homophobic is the same as your right to like or not like Earl Grey tea'.

Privatisation of the NHS and charges to see your GP. Paul Nuttall, deputy leader of UKIP has said that the NHS stifles competition and that privatisation should be pushed forward.

Support for fracking and dirty energy. They do not believe in taking measures to combat climate change as they do not believe it is caused by man's activities.

Don't support re-nationalisation of trains or energy companies, but only the Greens do - so it's probably only me who cares about that.

They have refused to state their opposition to the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership TTIP "trade deal" which will hand power over to corporations to overturn decisions of our democratically elected governments on health, business, environmental and social issues or any other issues that can affect a corporations profits(what happened to taking power back?). E.g the smoking ban could be overturned if it can be proved to have harmed tobacco companies? profits.

They support the ivory trade - Out of the 14 EU MEP's (from a total of 647) who voted against the ban, 6 of those are UKIP, including Farage.

They are funded by bankers and other wealthy Tories. UKIP's biggest donor is Paul Sykes, an ex-Tory donor. Another major Tory party donor is Eton educated Stuart Wheeler, their treasurer. There was also a ?100,000 donation from Clare Barbour, who is the wife of Tory donor Patrick Barbour.

Roger Helmer, a Tory defector to UKIP also thinks rape victims are to blame for being raped.

They have links to the Far Right Europe of Freedom and Democracy (EFD) in Europe who praised the Norwegian neo-nazi mass murderer Andres Beivik's ideas.

There are scandals over lack of attendance in the EU parliament and large expense payments, paid for by us, but I'm sure most of you are aware of those already.

This is why I consider UKIP policies to be odious - oh and saying they are not official policies is not good enough. Without setting out a manifesto, these are all we have to go on.

[El Pibe]

well indeed, you only have to look at the no campaign for scotland to see that.

Quite literally the worst campaign of all time.

Taking a fairly secure position, when all they need to do was basically say 'oh but we've all had such good times together' and keep schtum, and turn that into a rather likely looking win for the yes camp by bullying.

Again there's something of the 'we'll sort it all out in the morning' about the scottish nationalists, and I find Salmond genuinely awful.

But I guess that's for anoher thread.

[Otta]

El Pibe Wrote:

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and I find Salmond genuinely awful.

>

> But I guess that's for anoher thread.

I probably is for another thread, but whilst we're here, from the first time I saw/heard him on telly, well before I was really interested in politics at all (not that I'm THAT in to it these days to be totally honest) I just found myself really really disliking the man. He just stinks of self interest.