Lewisham banding system (and Harris)

[katgod]

This keeps cropping up in the threads on Haberdashers and Charter, but I don't want to hijack those. Can someone explain to me how it works. I have seen the the Lewisham schools have 5 bands of entry so there is a mixed intake. I have a few questions - would be great to know the answers from those wo have been through this already;

I am in Southwark, so does Southwark send the SATs results to Lewisham, or is there some other mechanism?

School places allocated in April so SATS all taken and marked by then?

If my child is in say the top band, and there are lots of chldren who really well in SATS, does distance then get taken into account? ( So the catchment for band 1 could be different to the catchment for band 2?)

Are the bands fixed, ie Band 5 is those who get level 3-4c, band 4 is level 4B-4A, up to band 1 being level 5A+? Or is it done on a percentage range, so the top 20% of Lewisham children go in band 1 , next 20% in band 2, so if everyone does really well the bands are flexible and can cope?

I think Harris has the same system (but based on their own test, not SATs), and my concern is that if the ED schools produce lots of bright children, the bands could work to their disadvantage because some bands will be oversubscribed and others undersubscribed.

Thanks for any light you can shed on bands!

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Katgod,

bands are independent to SATs. Schools send on SATs info and a report before a child starts their secondary. Banding tests are typically non-verbal reasoning tests. Southwark has no central test anymore as all its schools are Academies/Faith and therefore have their own admissions criteria/assessments. Children are ranked according to score, and in terms of the Lewisham system, they are split into 5 groups each containing 20% of applicants. The Haberdashers Federation do it in a similar way but use 9 bands (done on a school by school basis). Harris use a very similar system too.

Renata

[mariababe]

From memory - a few years ago when I went through this- the Lewisham schools used year 5 results to band...once the child starts secondary the schools use CAT scores (every school does this) and they use these for progression/ setting etc. This is because a lot of primary's teach for SAT's results and drops in levels are the norm in year7

I think the bands are flexible based on each years intake/application, but I know from Lewisham data the top 2 bands in most schools are heavy (excellent primary schools in Lewisham)

[katgod]

Renata - so the bands are determined after the places are allocated? So it is distance first, then if you are one of the closest 180 you get a place, and then the 180 are ranked in order and split? how is that fairer than just distance? How does that work?

I think what Mariababe says makes more sense, Year 5 results sent, but it does sound as if there is a disadvantage in being in the top 2 bands? Why can't the bands flex to reflect the results of the local schools - where is the incentive to do well if you stand more chance of getting in if you perform worse? That is what I am struggling with.

[simonethebeaver]

There is a NVR test at the end of year 5 in Lewisham primaries, and each child is assigned a band on the back of that. Some Lewisham secondaries just use that for admissions. Southwark applications I'm not totally sure of the method of banding them!

Other, and Haberdashers is one, administer their own NVR test to all who apply, from whatever borough, and then moderate the results into bands shared equally across the number (eg 900 applicants would result in 100 in each band). This removes the disadvantage of top heavy banding as a very able set of applicants will still be separated into equal bands.

It is horribly confusing. We applied for six secondaries with six different admissions criteria this year.

[bawdy-nan]

having gone through this recently there are a myriad different tests that your child will have to sit, each school operating their own banding tests some before (eg Kingsdale, Harris etc) and some after (eg Charter) places are allocated. Its dreary and unsettling for all.

[katgod]

thanks. I 'get' charter doing some sort of test to put the children they have admitted on the basis of distance into ability groups by subject. I still don't quite get how it works for the others. If I live in Southwark and apply to a Lewisham school, my child has not done the Lewisham test, so is therefore at an inherent disadvantage? or is there some other way that Southwark children get scored?

It does seem as if the Lewsisham schools apply distance within the bands - that is what I don't get. Do they look at the results of the NVR and say right lets offer places to the 30 closest by distance boys who scored over 90% in the NVR, then band 2 is the closest 30 boys who scored 80-90% etc....

Pleased that Habersdashers at least flexes to reflect the intake - but if still based on distance not sure that achieves the egalitarian state that people on the other thread seem to think will happen??

Still totally confused tbh.

[intexasatthe moment]

As simone and mariababe say ( if I'm reading their posts correctly ) Haberdashers divide up each years applications into 9 ,so the score needed for each band will vary each year according to who has applied .

My understanding is that Haberdashers band by score and allocate places within the bands by giving priority according to distance .

I think you're right that this can disadvantage yr 6 pupils if there are a lot of high scoring pupils all competing for a couple of top bands .

Again as far as I understand Harris have a different way of banding in that the scores required for each band reflect the national average scores rather than the top ninth /bottom ninth etc of those applying in any particular year .

I think banding is not as simple as it seems ,I know I find it confusing ,and I don't think schools publish much information .

You can search on line on gov websites with guidance on admissions policies and there is some detail there on different types of banding .

[bawdy-nan]

As far as I understand, having gone through it this year, you have to sit the tests at each school that "bands". If you are out of area (for example as in Wandsworth where there is also a pan-borough test) you sit the test on a different day.

Some don't "band" - ie Sydenham School (Lewisham). The admissions and over-subscriptions criteria are different in each place and it can be a bit bamboozling.

[simonethebeaver]

Sydenham does band, but uses the Lewisham yr 5 test results rather than any test of its own. Ditto all local authority schools in Lewisham.

Intexas, as Katgod says, banding of applicants rather than banding of all kids reduces the disadvantage as, for example, if 50% of your applicants would be in the top band of the Lewisham test, then instead of all of them competing in that one band, your own test will moderate them into the top five bands of ability of YOUR applicants. Thus giving them a better chance.

Banding doesn't increase a school's reach by very much if there's great demand - just look at Haberdasher's Hatcham! But it does make some difference.

[Fuschia]

http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2013/06/time-to-allow-true-fair-banding/

[intexasatthe moment]

Chapter and verse on banding if it helps anyone .

http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/i/informationnoteonbandingfeb09.pdf

[bawdy-nan]

I didn't know that Sydenham banded - we applied this round and had no information about it.

It looks to me as though schools that choose to band do so to alter their intake towards higher performing pupils when, historically, they may have had a lower performing intake but that where schools sit within a wealthier / higher performing catchment they tend to plump for proximity.

I suppose when a school system is so dominated by "results" and performance tables and parents use them to identify which schools they think are "the best" then its understandable, if distasteful, that schools do everything they can to snag the "high performers".

As a parent it can feel baffling though, on the plus side, I have to say that, when viewing local schools last year I was overwhelmingly impressed. Even in schools where I wasn't a huge fan of the "ethos" I saw much to be admired and was very heartened.

I'm very saddened by the unfolding factionalism and spatting on the forum in relation to the proposed new schools. (And am waiting to see the story pop up in the press). It's beginning to feel very unsavoury and mean spirited. Certianly not the kind of example I want set for my children.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi all, banding test for admissions are separate to the CAT and other tests that children sit to set them for different subjects. Harris girl's also do the take all applicants, rank and split into equal size groups and then allocate distance places on as the crow flies distance. Southwark used to have a banding test in it's primaries, but this was abandoned as all the secondary schools in the borough are academies/VA etc and didn't want to use the outcomes from the Southwark banding as they have their own assessments.

Renata

[katgod]

Thank you. Renata, what you describe for Harris sounds ok, but if that is what the Lewisham schools do I fear what we will get next year. Also I am still not clear if the bands are fixed or reflect the local intake. As local achools improve, if the bands are fixed are we going to be shipping in less well performing kids from, say, Clapham, to fill the lower bands? I think it has to reflect the local reality not some fixed range.

Bawdy I am glad to read you were impressed - I was too when I looked round, and also relieved that you were not aware of the banding- maybe I am worrying too much! And Texas thanks for pm.

Anyone know what the timeframe would be for the Hospital site school? Any chance up and running for September 2015 :-)?

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Katgod, the Lewisham schools (ie LA run schools, excludes eg Haberdashers) do a central banding in year 5 for their children and then this is used by the individual schools for splitting up their applicants. I'm happy to help if you'll need some help in the autumn re secondary.

Renata

[katgod]

Thanks. My children are in southwark schools soveon't sit the Zjewisham test although my favourite school at present us in Lewisham. I fear the combination of distance and bands will defeat us- but I will try anyway. Anyone know if bands flex yovrefectvthe applicants or fixed? Will try to read the attachment above over weekend to see if it helps!!

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi again Katgod,

Where individual schools do their banding it tends to be banded according to those who apply to the school. In the case of the Lewisham community schools, it's a central test for all of those, so it would be on the Lewisham residents rather than one particular school. I would suggest you go for your favorite school anyway, and remember you have 6 choices so put down a couple that you don't like as much, but would be OK as backup at the bottom of your list, ie rank your schools in true order of preference. Even if you don't get a preferred school initially, there is always movement on waiting lists.

Renata

[mariababe]

Hi Katgod,

We applied for Sydenham schools and we are in southwark, we didn't sit any tests (apart from HABS) Sydenham girls uses year 5 results from your southwark school for the purposes of banding.

If you want to know how far away the last place offered(by band and distance) by school please check this booklet out

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/education/schools/school-admission/applying-to-start-secondary-school/Documents/SecondarySchools201415.pdf

from page 31