Mother of all Council Houses

[Huguenot]

On another note, please find attached an excellent summary document which covers the entire debate on social housing.

You may find that some of your preconceptions are unfounded, and some reinforced ;-)

[Keef]

Can anyone explain to me why any Family arriving legitimately from abroad should be given PRIORITY over the indigenous population of this Country when it comes to Local Government assisted housing?

They're not given PRIORITY because they're from abroad. If a person is homeless, no matter where they're from, they will be housed because the council has a duty to do so. More often than not people will be put in to a hostel of some sort, until a home can be found. If an English family with 2 kids went in and presented themselves as homeless, and then a family from abroad did the same thing, they'd get exactly the same service!

Dems the facts!

[SeanMacGabhann]

* stands and applauds *

* doffs cap in Keef's direction *

And gratutious crowbaring of the word Dems in there as well as a subliminal advert for tonight - bonus

[Brendan]

So why should someone arriving from abroad be given the same preference as a UK national?

[SeanMacGabhann]

surely same would apply to jobs Brendan? Why should you and I as non-nationals have access to jobs in this country when there is a growing unemployment queue?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Keef Wrote:

They're not given PRIORITY because they're from

abroad. If a person is homeless... they'd get exactly the same service! Dems the facts!

True Keef but isn't the point that "Homelessness" is THE Number One priority when each Local Council decides who should receive Council assisted accomodation and by definition if a Family or individual arrives from abroad to live here and thus present themselves to their Local Council they are immediutely classified as "Homeless" and placed at the top of the waiting list with all other Homeless Families whether they were previously resident here or not.

Thus all the other needy Families,by definition, slip one place further down the waiting list for each Family or individual arriving in this way.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Thank You for your rhetorical points Brendan/Sean but I'll tell you what I'll do for you as it doesn't matter what contributions one has made to something,clearly.

Would you two kindly form a Business Partnership. Work every hour under the sun to make it a success and when years later you have finally achieved this goal and firmly established yourselves as "SeanBren International Ltd". I will,AS A FAVOUR MIND(!), deign to join you as an equal Partner coming in from the outside having made no contribution initially,whatsoever.

Do we have a deal? If so,GET CRACKING GUYS!!B)

I'll join you in around 2010/11 and perhaps to reflect my equal status we could then be "SeanBrenTls International Ltd":))....

I can feel the ???'s and Punts rolling in as I speak.

Luvly Jubbly>:D<

I trust thats O.K. as its a similar principle.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Brendan Wrote:

So why should someone arriving from abroad be given the same preference as a UK national? :))

So to continue the rhetorical theme....

I will catch a Bus later. Now I should be given the same preference as someone else doing likewise,who is ALREADY at the Bus Stop in the queue. So does mean there is not a queue now? I'm now EQUALLY at the front(or the middle/back of the queue) with them?

Surely we all have the same goal but they were there b4 me so I have to join the queue BEHIND them when the circumstances are "similar"...Do you agree(question goes to Sean as well B) that this is only fair?B)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

...Duplicate Post.

[DaveR]

"by definition if a Family or individual arrives from abroad to live here and thus present themselves to their Local Council they are immediutely classified as "Homeless" and placed at the top of the waiting list with all other Homeless Families whether they were previously resident here or not"

Most people arriving from abroad are not homeless when they get here - they have made plans, and that applies whether its an American investment banker taking up a rented house in Mayfair (rather fewer of those for a while I guess) or a Chinese restaurant worker dossing down with 5 others in a room in Chinatown. Getting the council to house you is not an option most people want to choose - if you claim asylum at Dover these days you're likely to end up first in a hostel somewhere and subsequently in a flat no-one else wants to live in on a housing scheme in Glasgow.

The problem (in London at least) is not that 'indigenous' Brits in real need can't get housing - it's that there's not enough council housing (particularly in certain London boroughs) to give subsidised housing to people who have been priced out of their neighbourhoods. Anyway, if you are a single person working full-time can you really claim to be in 'need' of a council house? Bearing in mind that you may be able to claim housing benefit in any event, depending on your earnings.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

"by definition if a Family or individual arrives from abroad to live here and thus present themselves to their Local Council they are immediutely classified as "Homeless" and placed at the top of the waiting list with all other Homeless Families whether they were previously resident here or not"

DaveR "Most people arriving from abroad are not homeless when they get here - they have made plans..."

"and thus present themselves to their Local Council ".....I was only referring to the Guys coming from abroad who are doing this not to the other individuals/families who have made contingency plans.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

As regards the rhetorical jobs point...

Whether I,and others, like it we have to accept that Employers will pay as little as they have to and given the following :-

1/ We have had a large influx of the stereotypical "Poles" etc who have come here to work hard to,primarily,send monies home to their Families.

2/ The cost of living in the Balkan States and Eastern Europe IS considerably cheaper.

3/ Thus the "Poles etc" are able to take less wages per hour because of "2".

4/ That Employers will (and have) latched onto this and offered less wages per hour,accordingly.

5/ That the average workman already here with the usual UK expenses needs more than they are currently willing to pay to be able to keep his/her head above water and financially manage.

6/ That effectively they will then be priced out of jobs or take wages that would be perfectly acceptable to live in Eastern Europe but are far below what is needed here (particularly in London Town).

Stage 7: Many Plumbers/Electricians/Builders are (and were) priced out of jobs accordingly.

This is ASSuming all other things are equal like "Work Ethic2 and "Qualifications" etc....

Dems the facts!B)

[SeanMacGabhann]

It's some of the facts Tony - I still don't see where you are going with any of this other than it apperas to be "stop all immigration"

Which presumably means millions of expat Brits coming back here?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

It's some of the facts Tony - I still don't see where you are going with any of this other than it apperas to be "stop all immigration"

We have a moral obligation to provide shelter for people who are GENUINELY fleeing other Countries( whether there is any previous connection with "GB Ltd" or not. That should still stand as should exceptional circumstances (like the admirable Gurkhas) but the massive problem I feel Sean is that in Housing,in particulas,we haven't got the resources to just continually allow others to come unless its done on a Points bases system (a la Australasia) whereby the Guys coming here won't be dependent on us but will have made contingency plans for Housing and work which is what DaveR alluded to.

Allied to this is the pitiful amount of funded accomodation these days so that we have a system where some/many people born here can never get social housing even though they may be struggling but are not at the top of the pile,and have contributed into our system all their lives.

Ex-Pats?...Are the Guys in their own little Colony in Spain affecting the everyday life of the average Spaniard in any shape or form? .Surely the answer is No. How many of them want Spanish Social Housing and are dependent on their Host Nation? .Few,I would suggest.

Its the same principle in Australia/NZ/Canada/USA etc. Surely,by definition these days(the ?10 package has long gone) they have to meet certain criteria based on a Points system to be able to gain entry into those Countries.

Of course,there are always exceptions,but surely most of the 5.5 Million who have departed over recent years are NOT dependent on their Host Nation to support them.. If they could not proove that they could support themselves and their Families then they would not be allowed entry,in the first place!:))

[Brendan]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> surely same would apply to jobs Brendan? Why

> should you and I as non-nationals have access to

> jobs in this country when there is a growing

> unemployment queue?

Fair point Sean. I live and work here basically because I can, I quite like it and I don?t feel like going back to small town Seffrika just yet. I do not however feel I have some intrinsic right to.

Granted someone like me who was already educated and was contributing to the British economy and paying tax from day one is a net gain for the economy. But surely a country has a responsibility to the people it has spawned.

[Izodia]

But surely the Eastern Europeans working cheaply here are living here too...so they have to pay UK expenses too and still manage to send money home.

Tony, to go back to something you said earlier...if not being able to get a council house meant you went and got a mortgage instead then surely you didn't really need the council house in the first place? I can't get my own mortgage but being in a reasonably paid full-time job, I don't deserve council accommodation.

[DaveR]

Sorry Tony, but both the company and the bus analogies are a bit off the mark. Council housing polices are designed to reflect need, pure and simple, and whether you are foreign or not does not figure. Obviously you are probably statistically more likely to be genuinely homeless if you are a refugee recently arrived in the UK than if you were born and bred here, but the fact is that all homeless familes get priority over single adults or families who do have homes but want a council home instead.

As to the Polish plumbers, don't you remember "Auf Wiedersehn Pet"? On balance we're all better off for having free movement (and would be even better off if various other European countries didn't cheat on their end of the deal). In the long term costs of living in Poland will rise and the wage differential will disappear. It's started already - Polish builders aren't as cheap as they used to be!

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Izodia Wrote:

But surely the Eastern Europeans working cheaply here are living here too...so they have to pay UK> expenses too and still manage to send money home.

Hi! Of course that is correct but most of the Guys I know live in Groups in a single accomodation and share resources and expenses between them and have no mortgage to pay here which is,invariably,the most considerable expense.

"Tony, to go back to something you said earlier..if not being able to get a council house meant you went and got a mortgage instead then surely you didn't really need the council house in the first place? ......

I was left some money from my Late Aunt that changed my circumstances Izodia .

I had been on the Waiting List for 8 years with my local Council (which had the highest percentage of Council-owned property in the whole Country) and without that money would have still been there until I was able to afford to go "Private". I was also speaking for many other people at that time who also failed for many,many years to get a place.

Remember in those times there WAS much more Council accomodation before The Thatcher Years.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

DaveR Wrote:

Sorry Tony, but both the company and the bus analogies are a bit off the mark. Council housing polices are designed to reflect need, pure and simple, and whether you are foreign or not does not figure. Obviously you are probably

statistically more likely to be genuinely homeless if you are a refugee recently arrived in the UK than if you were born and bred here but the fact is that all homeless familes get priority over single adults or families who do have homes but

want a council home instead.

Your point is correct about the refugees DaveR but the salient point is surely

" Obviously you are probably statistically more likely to be genuinely homeless if you are a refugee recently arrived in the UK"...........

DaveR wrote:

As to the Polish plumbers, don't you remember "Auf Wiedersehn Pet"? On balance we're all better off for having free movement (and would be even better off if various other European countries didn't cheat on their end of the deal). In the long term costs of living in Poland will rise and the wage differential will disappear. It's started already Polish builders aren't as cheap as they used to be!

It is gradually changing and I hear some Polish Guys have returned as the differential is narrowing!

However, I know a few "Late-40's/50 somethings" British workers who have lost out and are,realistically,unlikely to benefit from The Free Trade situation.

[mockney piers]

"Ex-Pats?...Are the Guys in their own little Colony in Spain affecting the everyday life of the average Spaniard in any shape or form? .Surely the answer is No. How many of them want Spanish Social Housing and are dependent on their Host Nation? .Few,I would suggest. "

Oooh deary me no. They've had a horrendous impact on many communities in Spain, and ageing immigrants in general (not just the brits this time) have also been a major contributory factor to one of Europe's best health services groaning and creaking hugely under the strain.

So your Brit contributes nothing to the new nation's coffers then at an age when they're pretty much guaranteed to need expensive medical care they....jump to the front of the queue.

Meanwhile they'll claim they were forced out of their country because of all the "immigrants with their strange foods and clothes and wailing minarets, who can't be bothered to learn the language or integrate..blah .. blah" whilst simultaneously shouting rudely at the locals in English, calling them all Pedro, eating bangers and beans, drinking heavily, upsetting the locals, only ever going out in their own places singing karaoke and playing bingo...etc ... etc ...

Of course the genuine Brits who left for a new and better life and DID integrate into the communities are the ones who really suffered as they were once part of the communities they joined, now find themselves shunned as part of this ugly invasion.

Tengo mucho familia por alla y I'm just saying...

And Spain is number one ex-pat destination of recent times, though obviously there are greater numbers in the Commonwealth thanks to historical emigration to Canada, Australia and New Zealand

[Keef]

they are immediutely classified as "Homeless" and placed at the top of the waiting list with all other Homeless Families whether they were previously resident here or not.

That's just not true, they will be placed on the waiting list with the same priority as all the other families in that situation, they don't jump to number 1 spot and take over everyone else!

All these people moaning because they've waited years (and believe me, I do sympathise) could leave whatever home they were living in and present as homeless, and get the same treatment, but there is a reason they don't, and that's because it's a shite situation to be in!

[Brendan]

Blah blah blah? immigration? blah blah? council house? blah blah blah? blah blah? New Labour? blah blah? EU? blah blah? hard workers? blah blah blah blah blah? I?m not a racist? blah blah, Benefits?. blah blah Polish? blah blah blah blah blah terrorists? blah blah? bloody Daily Mail? blah blah blah blah blah? disgraceful? blah blah blah? health and safety is discriminating against me? blah blah blah blah? yadda yadda? I actually quite like curry? blah blah blah... but everyone?s really the same? blah blah blah blah blah blah? but we must understand our differences? blah blah? queen and country? blah blah welfare state? blah blah blah blah blah?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Keef Wrote:

they are immediutely classified as "Homeless" and

> placed at the top of the waiting list with all

> other Homeless Families whether they were

> previously resident here or not.

That's just not true, they will be placed on the waiting list with the same priority as all the other families in that situation, they don't jump to number 1 spot and take over everyone else!

Keef: In that piece above that you quoted I was saying they go to the top as they are homeless "with all" other homeless families-some born here,some been here for a while and some newly arrived.

All people newly arrived from abroad who present themselves to the local council will be classified as "Homeless" and,thus,will go to the top of the Housing List along with existing homeless people already there so,by definition,they will go above and be given priority over all the other needy people already on there who are not actually homeless but are nevertheless in need for other reasons.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Brendan Wrote:

Blah blah blah? immigration? blah blah? council house? blah blah blah? blah blah? New Labour? blah blah? EU? blah blah? hard workers? blah blah blah blah blah? I?m not a racist? blah blah, Benefits?. blah blah Polish? blah blah blah blah blah

> terrorists? blah blah? bloody Daily Mail? blah blah blah blah blah? disgraceful? blah blah blah? health and safety is discriminating against me? blah blah blah blah? yadda yadda? I actually quite like curry? blah blah blah... but everyone?s

> really the same? blah blah blah blah blah blah? but we must understand our differences? blah blah? queen and country? blah blah welfare state? blah blah blah blah blah?

LOL..Now do it properly Brendan if you are going to M8!...where's "some of my best friends" for starters?

At least the above doesn't apply to me! I HATE curry with a vengeance..the smell..the taste every little thing about it:))

[snorky]

The Sun is a vicious rag when it wants to be

Large family need accomodation + greedy landlord knowing how to use the system = headline

Why do we need to know that the family are refugees ? why is it important to know this ? Its stirring shit of the lowest and most sneaky level without actually goading the reader to drive anyone non "British" back into the sea

Of course there are some pople who use rhe system and take the piss - people of migrant & of UK stock - its abhorrent that people do this ( to me ), but it happens

Anyway, INgerland are playing the Kazakhs tomorrow - lets see the Sun put on its Gawd Bless 'er majesty hat again & ramp up the xenphobia once more - cue Borat references on page after page