Wasteful & pointless resurfacing of East Dulwich roads?

[Heart108]

Questions for Southwark Councillors:

1 - Why is there so much road re-surfacing going on in East Dulwich in areas which are already prosperous and well maintained compared to other parts of the borough?

2 - Who decides why it is necessary and where are their decisions published on the Southwark website? ( Freedom of Info)

3 - What does does the resurfacing cost?

4 - Is it related to spending excesses in budget for the sake of it as we near the end of the financial year?

* * *

Example: recent resurfacing of the stretch of Upland Road between Piermont Green and Underhill Rd with 3 speed humps

The road resurfacing seems pointless and wasteful because:

a) The road surface and humps were in pretty good condition ( the surface was so smooth that kids used to skateboard regularly)

b) The road is in a crescent loop ( with Friern blocked off) etc and it has ZERO through traffic and is used only by residents or deliveries.

PROVE THIS CONCLUSION IS WRONG: the real reason for all this road resurfacing is to do with wasteful contracts which have clauses that need the money spent.. and in fact this is scandalous waste when lots of services that affect people are in dire need of funding and there are other areas of the borough which could do with the money spent.

[DuncanW]

Isn't there resurfacing work happening throughout the borough?

It's only a casual observation but I cycle around a lot and seem to notice its not only happening it ED.

[mikeb]

Because it's March, just before councils' fiscal year end and budgets are "use it or lose it". Every year it's the same.

[steveo]

It took months for Conways to replace the good paths in Court Lane with slightly better ones.

[PokerTime]

Why not write to the council citing FOI? Seems pointless asking for councillor responses in a public forum.

[Penguin68]

The stretch of Underhill resurfaced last week was certainly one of the bits in better repair (no pot-holes or 'flaking') - but I note that the old 3 speed humps (3 of them) were replaced by long (pavement to pavement) sleeping policemen - maybe changing the speed constraints was the trigger?

[worldwiser]

James Barber's response to me here:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,336529,page=116

goes someway to answering this. Although I'm very sympathetic to your viewpoint and wish there were far more transparency in this area. Lordship Lane itself has some appalling sections - one of the area's busiest roads - and yet sideroads are being prioritised. Makes no logical sense to me.

[uncleglen]

mikeb is correct- this happens every year in all public sector areas so lots of pointless stuff is done or bought because the money cannot be transferred to other departments. Interesting that the budget has announced 200 million for the repair of potholes

[NickT]

Well my road was resurfaced last week for the first time since I've lived here, 14 years. It needed it and they made a great job of it with minimum inconvenience. I'm happy they found the money wherever it came from.

[grace3]

Conways have the 'decision' maker in Southwark 'on the payroll'

[ultraburner]

Conways doing Linden grove (by the cemetery) in Nunhead at the mo.

Didn't need doing, it was fine imho.

Good question by the OP...

[MrBen]

grace3 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Conways have the 'decision' maker in Southwark 'on

> the payroll'

That's a potentially libellous allegation back to your IP address. It might be possible. But these contracts aren't in the hands of one individual these days...

[Luana]

They did the same in Glengarry Road last week and it looks much better.

[DrinkingBuddy]

Personally I think a lot of the roads in ED have been in a terrible state and this is an ongoing project for the last couple of years, not just an end of the financial year thing.

I was delighted when our road was done, it had massive sections of broken and missing tarmac.

[Nigello]

Glad to have (part of) Goodrich resurfaced with minimum fuss, though I object a great deal to nonsensical bicycle symbols being put down. I'll take that back if Goodrich is on an advertised and signposted cycle route and similar signs appear on different stretches of that route, but I don't think it is. We all know that bikes are road-going vehicles (I'll not take the chance to bring up pavement cycling here) so why the need to paint a picture of one on the highway?

[jimmyraj]

They've just resurfaced the pavements on Choumert Road but not the road, which was in a far worse condition than the pavements. Obviously could only afford the former.

[James Barber]

This is how the very limited capital is spent of highway repairs:

Schemes recommended for planned maintenance under Non Principal Road Capital Improvement programme have been selected using the Horizons software package. The software identifies and priorities highway maintenance schemes, and determines the cost implications of various treatments.

Inventory data was imported into horizons to develop the capital programme.

1) SCANNER survey data for A,B, and C roads for 2010/11, and 2011/12. Giving coverage of the complete classified road network as defined for the ROAD 2000 project.

2) DVI survey of 100% of the unclassified carriageway and footway using 2012/13 and 2013/14 surveys.

3) CVI survey data of the unclassified carriageway for 2008/9,2009/10,2010/11 and 2012/13.

4) GIS model for United Kingdom Pavement Management System (UKPMS) survey network

The overarching aim was to be able to allocate capital funding based on whole life costing.

"

The council currently and planning to spend ?4M pa on highway renewals. The backlog when I last checked was over ?18M and to stand still officers quoted ?6M pa.

[jaih1]

I don't think it is wasteful; I for one am glad to see the council being proactive and improving the infrastracture of the area

[Heart108]

Thanks James, I appreciate your joining the discussion and offering some information.

Surely there must be a balance struck between data being fed into a software package - and - a road expert coming to visit the actually site in order to determine whether it should be resurfaced?

How does this work in Southwark - who are the decision makers?

Did someone actually come and look at the surface of Upland road between Piermont Green and how much did this cost?

I really can't believe that it was necessary doing this piece of work and it has led me to question whether other road resurfacing works are actually necessary

@jaih1 - surely it is wasteful if it is not necessary? I am talking about specific decisions not the general principle of improving roads

* * *

A term I would love explored which James refers to is ' whole life costing' - this is the kind of mechanism which enables a private company to charge ?4000 for a grit bin that costs ?400

A recent BBC File on 4 did a brilliant investigation into the relationship between Birmingham Council's multimillion deal with a private accountant company - here is where the term 'whole life costing' came up:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/04_03_14_fo4_theaccountantkings.pdf

I will bet you Upland Rd would have easily lasted another decade or more

[James Barber]

hi Heart108,

All the data is based on actual surveys of roads. In fact several years surveys to see the rate of highway breaking up. So partly forecasting when a road will fail - it's cheaper to resurface before structural failure. Once structural failure involved its really expensive to fix. Partly responding to structural failure.

The problem isn't that resurfacing is occurring but that not enough it taking place. We still have lots and lots of crappy roads in East Dulwich and across Southwark.

[LadyDeliah]

As a cyclist, I welcome any road improvements. Pot holes are really dangerous for cyclists. I hit one hard on Peckham Rye a while back and nearly ended up under a bus.

[Penguin68]

I think the point which was being made was that the stretch of Underhill which was resurfaced was one of the few where there were no potholes or surface break-up - the issue isn't about applying funds to resurface roads, but about resurfacing (first) those bits of road which are already damaged and then (if money remains) undertaking precautionary work before troubles arise. The 'wastefullness' is about fixing what isn't broken before fixing what is.

[duke]

I am very happy with the recent road and footpath resurfacing in Upland Road.

After living here in Upland Road for 17 years its very nice to see them spending money to improve the area. Its sad that people have to be anti-government and/or jealous that their road hasn't been done in order to respond with negative remarks, surely its better to show more appreciation for the work they have done in order to encourage them to resurface more roads and footpaths in the area regardless of what politician they support or road they live in..?

Oh look, the suns out..! looks like its going to be a nice day..

[Countrlass22]

Thing with glengarry they only did less than quarter of whole road,all of it needed doing..........

[Heart108]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hi Heart108,

> All the data is based on actual surveys of roads.

> In fact several years surveys to see the rate of

> highway breaking up. So partly forecasting when a

> road will fail - it's cheaper to resurface before

> structural failure. Once structural failure

> involved its really expensive to fix. Partly

> responding to structural failure.

Hi James, the general principle you explain is indeed sound - and I have no quarrel with it.

The facts I am asking for relate specifically to the decisions on individual bits of road.

I think we all agree open government/freedom of information means/ accountability and transparency is important.

That an individual long term resident of East Dulwich, council tax paying etc should be able to look up the facts and the costs of a stretch of road which he/she has known intimately for decades.

I remember speaking once with a contractor who was doing the speed bumps in Friern Road round the corner from the stretch I am talking about. He said that each speed bump cost ?4000.00 and that was several years ago.

Where can I look up the cost of the road resurfacing specifically for the Upland Rd/Piermont Green stretch?

Where can I look up the report that says that this was necessary?

Do you not agree with me that this information should be available?

What is frustrating me about your response so far is that it is not specific to the example I raised.

I am not against improving the area.

I am in favour of residents having some knowledge of and influence over how money is spent directly on roads and pavements in their area.

I hate the idea that this money is being spent ( presumably tens of thousands of pounds) on something for which the evidence is not available to the council tax payer & there is no consultation or notice.

Why should someone living in a run down area of the Borough subsidise well to do streets of East Dulwich where houses are worth a fortune and the traffic is extremely light

.. Unless there is a clearly accountable case for each piece of spending?

> The problem isn't that resurfacing is occurring

> but that not enough it taking place. We still have

> lots and lots of crappy roads in East Dulwich and

> across Southwark.

If the problem is that we have lots of 'crappy roads' across Southwark and a backlog, and inadequate funds, all the more reason to make really sure that each individual piece of work is desirable and necessary.

PS Can you supply some links for the information you gave earlier -

" Inventory data was imported into horizons to develop the capital programme.

1) SCANNER survey data for A,B, and C roads for 2010/11, and 2011/12. Giving coverage of the complete classified road network as defined for the ROAD 2000 project.

2) DVI survey of 100% of the unclassified carriageway and footway using 2012/13 and 2013/14 surveys.

3) CVI survey data of the unclassified carriageway for 2008/9,2009/10,2010/11 and 2012/13.

4) GIS model for United Kingdom Pavement Management System (UKPMS) survey network

The overarching aim was to be able to allocate capital funding based on whole life costing.

"