Bakerloo line extension to Camberwell?

[Jeremy]

Elevated karting track. Slow drivers forbidden.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Network Rail considered closing Loughborough Junction and replacing it with a (reopened) Station at Camberwell Green in 2007 - the platforms are still there, but little else. I think it was opposed by Lambeth Council and locals to LJ and so never happened. Here's the link (page 27): http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/BusinessPlan2007/PDF/Route%202%20Brighton%20Main%20Line.pdf

Personally, I was disappointed that this didn't happen - it would have made a lot of sense.

Nigello Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > There used to be a station at Camberwell, and -

> as far as I know

> > - could still be one if the money and effort

> were

> > forthcoming.

[Earl Aelfheah]

... actually, I think it was opposed by Southwark Council

[cle]

Can they both not exist? Close yes, but very different catchments.

Although it would lessen the case for the Bakerloo coming this direction! But would be a relatively easy one.

Maybe if the Bakerloo tracks do head to Burgess Park, they could have a Walworth Rd station at least before turning off towards Old Kent Road. It wouldn't help ED that much, but might be easier and quicker to connect from bus to Bakerloo there than the awful current Elephant arrangements.

[Nigello]

I agree. Bakerloo to E and C and then the overheated, claustrophic trek to over-populated lifts thence to skitter along the packed pavement for a 176 or 12 or 40 is the least appealing thing about living beyond SE1. A station at Walworth Road would be a big boon. Give it twenty years....

[Earl Aelfheah]

LJ is very close to both Brixton overground and tube. If it had to be a case of one or the other, IMO Southwark ought to have pushed for Camberwell Green. It's not remotely on the cards any more though.

Boris is not too bothered about courting SE london votes - it's too much of a Labour stronghold - hence most of his South of the river transport plans are targeted at the 'bluer' SW postcodes.

It would benefit the whole of SE to reduce congestion at Camberwell green. Even some Boris bikes would be an improvement.

[Nigello]

Boris might not be around for that much longer. A shame that cold, hard politics enters into it, but I'm not that green to think it doesn't. FWIW, the 176 service from Penge into town really ought to have some express options, or at least more buses at peak times. If I do have to use it, which is not that often in the morning, even at Townley Road it is getting full up.

[Earl Aelfheah]

A quick google search turned up this comment on the Camberwell Green station option and makes some interesting points (notably that it would serve twice as many destinations as LJ because of it's location on a branch of the line):

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33106

Maybe it's time to try and resurrect the campaign to reopen it?

[????]

I think it is only Me and Straefer who actually don't mind sitting on a bus in the morning with something to read and some music and a bit of time to ourslef....still don't want the tube in SE22, ever,completley changes areas into more transient, diminishes community etc etc.

[indiepanda]

No, I use the bus to get all the way to the office and I know two other friends do the same. I could use the train from Peckham Rye but the Blackfriars service isn't quite frequent or reliable enough to make it worth paying the extra cost bearing in mind the bus I'd use to get there goes all the way to the office.

Tube in Camberwell would be handy but not sure it would change my route to work, might use it at the weekend as I do the tube from Elephant now.

[cle]

It might be a bit better at weekends if the Blackfriars train went through via Kings Cross, which would give a few more options.

The bus is not a substitute, it's unpredictable, uncomfortable and not everybody has a spare hour to sit in traffic. Different demo though, so happy for buses to continue for their purpose.

[StraferJack]

?different demo(graphic)?

How so?

As for the ?not everyone has an hour to spare? ? it?s an easy line to trot out but it doesn?t bear much scrutiny

Depending on where you work in London, it can easily take an hour via train ? schlep to ED or PR station, wait for a train, hope it?s not cancelled or shrunk to 4 carriages, get to London Bridge, change for tube, wait for tube, schlep up from final stop

I tried various combinations over the years and yes sometimes, on a good day with wind behind me, I had a journey of 35-40 minutes but usually about an hour ? and that was with all of the above hassle. On a bus, it takes less than an hour, you get to read/think/work and less frazzled at other end

Failing that get up earlier. Do you ?have? an hour to do gym? Then bank the time and money and walk instead

As for the extension itself, I think there is valid case for having a station near Camberwell Green ? easing the choke on Walworth Rd. But a tube/overground in ED? Can?t see it being a good thing

[Jeremy]

I think I know what cle mean by the "different demographic" remark, in that it seems to be used more for local journeys than daily commuters. Lots of school kids, people travelling to stations, shoppers, local work places, etc. Although of course some commuters do use it, it's not for me - journey time (for my journey) is much faster by train/tube, and I don't like the unpredictable nature of bus journeys.

[cle]

Exactly, I'm not being snobby - it's obvious that buses serve a different demographic as Jeremy mentions: the elderly, school kids, those with kids, those not in a hurry, lower income groups due to bus pass prices, better for the disabled etc etc - commuters in peak hours I would not count among these.

'Get up earlier' is a straw man, not an actually meaningful solution to travel issues. Otherwise, why not all just walk everywhere?

[StraferJack]

well from SE22 to SE5 it really is a good question - why don't more people just walk?

i suspect it's as much down to not realising how close it is as anything else - but if more did it would alleviate crowding on all transport

But anyway - buses in rush hour.. most definitely not a different demographic. Later on in the morning perhaps, but if you are on a bus around 7-8 ish it's pretty much same demographic as the trains from ED. Maybe a slightly wider mix but nothing like the disparity suggested

[monkeylite]

I like to take the buses, but wish there was a tube line to SE London. The traffic on Old Kent Road and Walworth Road are often unbearable, even more so during roadworks.

No one is asking that every district in London should have a tube station, but not having a single underground station south of Bermondsey in SE London is a scandal.

I've lived in areas of North and West London (normally with 2-3 stations within walking distance). These areas are hardly transient at all.

[edcam]

I'm happy with things as they are (assuming services work properly!) Loads of buses, great rail connections, overground at DH and PR. I hate the tube, so I'm quite happy to use it as little as possible.

[StraferJack]

god my typing is atrocious

[Jeremy]

Overall the train works OK for me... ED is not particularly well connected, but Peckham Rye is better. Camberwell and Walworth is the real black spot.

[the-e-dealer]

But the Tube is just a train on tracks that sometimes goes underground why are trains ok but not the tube(which is trains) ? You wouldnt go underground if camberwell was on the tube.

[????]

cle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Exactly, I'm not being snobby - it's obvious that

> buses serve a different demographic as Jeremy

> mentions: the elderly, school kids, those with

> kids, those not in a hurry, lower income groups

> due to bus pass prices, better for the disabled

> etc etc - commuters in peak hours I would not

> count among these.

>

> 'Get up earlier' is a straw man, not an actually

> meaningful solution to travel issues. Otherwise,

> why not all just walk everywhere?

I laughed out loud as I read this on my bus full of commuters on the Walworth Road this morning -some even had, you know suits on and laptops and stuff.....

Utter rubbish, makes me laugh how those that don't use the buses for commuting know so much about who is on them

[edcam]

the-e-dealer Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But the Tube is just a train on tracks that

> sometimes goes underground why are trains ok but

> not the tube(which is trains) ? You wouldnt go

> underground if camberwell was on the tube.

Eh? Trains are generally much more comfortable and less claustrophobic than the tube.

[Penguin68]

how those that don't use the buses for commuting know so much about who is on them

If you don't use buses to commute, then probably if you do travel on them it will be out of commuter time (i.e. when you're not at work) - in which case the demographic described is probably fairly acurate - i.e. almost by definition excludes those going to or coming back from work.

It's fairly common (and normally unsound) to extrapolate rules or models based just on your own experience - but we all do it (particularly it often seems on this forum!)

[edcam]

I use buses quite a lot and I'm well posh.

[cle]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> how those that don't use the buses for commuting

> know so much about who is on them

>

> If you don't use buses to commute, then probably

> if you do travel on them it will be out of

> commuter time (i.e. when you're not at work) - in

> which case the demographic described is probably

> fairly acurate - i.e. almost by definition

> excludes those going to or coming back from work.

>

>

> It's fairly common (and normally unsound) to

> extrapolate rules or models based just on your own

> experience - but we all do it (particularly it

> often seems on this forum!)

Yep precisely. I do use buses, but not for time critical journeys where I have a set deadline or appointment. They're not reliable enough.

Hope ???? enjoyed his ride with Joe Punchclock of the post room. ;-)