Dulwich Park - Dogs Must be Kept on Short Lead

[first mate]

I would agree with that, problem is how to do it.

[grabot]

I would make the owner liable for any harm caused by the animal. So if the animal bites, the owner is charged with assault, wounding or whatever. This would reinforce the concept that harm is not caused by animals owned by responsible owners. If a person is known to own a dangerous animal and that animal kills, people with knowledge of that danger, who did nothing to highlight it to the authorities should be threatened with joint enterprise.

[Earl Aelfheah]

If you want to keep a large animal in your home, maybe there could be an inspection / vetting process, leading to the granting of a licence? It would mean a significant restriction on the number of people who could keep animals, but I'm not sure that would necessarily be a bad thing.

first mate Wrote:

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> I would agree with that, problem is how to do it.

[LadyDeliah]

mako Wrote:

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> 'Mako, fear of the unknown is a normal biological

> instinct but learning about potentially harmful

> things enables us to give our fears a rational

> context,'. I agree I learnt about potentially

> harmful dogs when my father in law was attacked by

> a jack russell last year whilst out running and as

> well as twenty stitches required he had 4 months

> of skin grafts. I still see no reason why all dogs

> shouldnt be muzzled in public areas.

I have been attacked on more than one occasion by men. I now know that men are dangerous and I have a totally rational fear of men. I see no reason why men should not all be tagged and put on a curfew to allay my reasonable fear of them.

[first mate]

rahrahrah, in principle it's a good idea, it's just a question of who would do the policing? The councils are totally unable to keep on top of responsible breeding practice, despite licensing and inspection mechanisms being in place. The proliferation of back yard breeders who churn out pups for profit are also part of the problem. Look at that guy who has just murdered two women. He was the subject of various investigations and exposes of his puppy farming, but still they could not close him down.

[taper]

" still see no reason why all dogs shouldnt be muzzled in public areas."

Because it's cruel and disproportionate? I've been bitten once and while out running, by a bull terrier on Burgess Park. Nasty, but very rare indeed.

[Dopamine1979]

First Mate has made the most sensible posts in this thread.

Some others have been barking up the wrong tree.

[first mate]

Taper, it is also necessary for owners to be aware of their dog's drives and to train/direct them appropriately. When dogs chase joggers bikes etc... It is almost certainly redirected prey drive, it's a different sort of aggression to that sparked by fear. It's the same instinct that prompts some dogs to chase squirrels or cats and even small dogs. A dog like a bull terrier may have quite high prey drive and that needs to be channelled as a pup with the right training and play. Again, I'd hazard a guess that this dog's owner failed to interact with and train their dog and so the animal finds itself another outlet....chasing joggers. All so unnecessary and avoidable when you pair a dog with the right owner. That dog should never have been let off lead, stupid owner.

Grabot,

Under sec 3 of the DDA both handler and owner may be liable for a dog that is dangerously out of control in a public place, if a person is injured this becomes an aggravated offence, both categories of offence come under criminal law and carry hefty fines and/or imprisonment. The dog may also be destroyed. Under the Dogs Act 1871 owners can be pursued under civil law for dogs that are ferocious and unmuzzled in a public place. As ever interpretation of the letter of the law is key.

[mako]

As some people have mentioned it isnt always large animals that bite and the jack russell that bit my father in law certainly wasnt big but did a huge amount of damage.

Taper, muzzling is not cruel and if trained properly with an appropriate muzzle should be no different to getting your dog to wear a dog coat as this article suggests http://www.endangereddogs.com/EDDRMuzzlingAdvice.htm

[mako]

Nasty, but very rare indeed.

Not that rare as 150 people a week are hospitalised from dog bites on average in uk, a numnber that is rising and obviously must only be a fraction of the number who are actually bitten but not hospitalised.

[first mate]

Mako, a dog that needs to be muzzled can be taught to wear a muzzle but it is not ideal and hardly warranted for the majority of dogs. The citation you give indicates training for dogs that need to be muzzled.

Of the people that end up in hospital with a bite we have no way of knowing how many of those have provoked a dog or have done something really stupid like trying to kick a dog away from them because the dog is in their way. I have in depth knowledge of how people can treat dogs and sometimes it is no wonder they get bitten. Yes, you get rogue dogs but just how will you police muzzling when it matters? We already have laws and penalties for dangerous dogs, where muzzling may well be part of sentencing- if the dog survives. The key thing here is to get to the owners, they are the real problem.

I had a smile when you said that training a muzzle is as easy as training a dog to have a coat on- I thought about someone I know who had a dog that started to nip at the sight of the coat because the owner had accidently hurt the dog when putting the coat on. The dog is fine now...but these things are not always straighforward.

In that very nice article you refer to (it is a good site and I have used it too)you will note that owners are instructed to take their time training the muzzle...you can't just whack it on and problem solved. If you have a dog that is already showing aggressive behaviour to people then getting a muzzle on is even more problematic and will take a lot of time and patience to train. Be under no illusion that dogs can feel very vulnerable when they have a muzzle on. If you then plan to take your person aggressive dog out in a muzzle you can already see what the problem is- they may fear people even more (aggression, other than prey drive, is generally the result of fear). You'll note in that article owners are warned that the dog is not stressed or made to feel any negative associations while being muzzle trained or all the work is undone and the dog may become worse....I have known dogs aggress at handlers to stop a muzzle being put on. Will the ne'er do well owner really take the time to do this training and do it well....doubtful your honour.

Ofcourse dogs that are trained from very young may be okay with a muzzle, though it can create problems in terms of socilisation and bite-inhibition- all key doggie learning curves. However, point one is this dog does not need to be muzzled because it is not showing aggressive behaviour, point 2 the owner that trains the muzzle well will be a good owner and a good trainer and it is unlikely they will allow a dog to ever get to the point that it harms a person.

Once more, aside from the above, muzzling will not address dogs off lead, dogs charging people, dogs jumping and leaving muddy pawprints on someon's clothing etc.. Muzzling is not a quick'n'easy fix. In the end it is all about responsible ownership/education.

[Earl Aelfheah]

If dogs can play billiards and poker, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to regulate their behaviour whilst out walking

[first mate]

rah,rah,rah oooeerrr missus/Mr.

[tallulah71]

Someone I know has a young (5 mth old ish) Cockapoo who jumps up all the time - esp to people he knows, and sometimes to people he doesn't. The owners are finding it difficult to train him not to do it because mostly when he does, people stroke him and make a fuss of him. Therefore the dog is getting mixed messages and not learning that to jump up is unacceptable. When he is fully gown, who will be a fault then?

It's really difficult for some owners to do the right thing when some people give attention to dogs who jump up to say hello. I don't mind if other people tell off my own dogs for jumping up - they need to be told.

[MelbyG]

As a new dog owner with a boisterous lab, I wanted to second first mate's earlier points here (does that make me second mate?)about what the dog is trying to do when jumping up. Labs, in particular, do seem to want to smother everyone in love whether they like it or not! I know my dog is trying to be friendly but I am painfully aware that this is unacceptable and I wouldn't appreciate it either. It's happened to me a few times, fortunately with sympathetic dog owners or dog lovers but once with a not-so sympathetic person (not in Dulwich Park). I was completely mortified, immediately put my dog on the lead and, since then, only exercise her off lead in Dulwich Woods on a weekday! Dulwich Park is too busy, particularly on a weekend and, even with training classes, I can't expect a puppy (who looks like a fully grown dog btw)to not be distracted by bikes, joggers, other dogs, balls etc. Just wanted to reassure that those of us with dogs are really trying to do the right thing but it is also important to ensure that our dogs are socialised and can deal with these situations. My dog responds much better to training when she's had time to expel energy off lead, but even if I take her to the most remote part of the park or woods, I can't guarantee that she won't try and greet a passing friendly face. I'll report back in a few years to let you know if it's any better?!

[Dopamine1979]

These threads can often get quite heated.

Let sleeping dogs lie.