Dulwich Park - Dogs Must be Kept on Short Lead

[Otta]

So is the ice cream van still near the end of the cycle track? If so, then yeah dogs technically don't need to be on leads there. Although to be honest, that's probably the busiest area of the park in terms of traffic, so if I was the owner I think I would keep my dog on the lead around there.

When I used to walk my dog in that park I just stuck to the grassy verge around one side of the park (the bit that eventually backs on to the lordship lane estate). If near a road I'd get the dog back on the lead, because even if it had the right not to be, that would count for nothing if it ended up under a car.

[Otta]

spider69 Wrote:

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> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Yeah but there are cyclists, and they're far

> > worse!

>

>

> Wait for it to come back......

I'm hopeful that even the most militant pro or anti cyclist would realise that was a joke...

But given recent threads, that may be naive.

[SueOrr0103]

Well it looks like every word I have written has been dissected and analysed. Just to clarify -

The dog came charging at me and leapt at me and there was physical contact hence I felt I was being attacked.

Now, from what I have known all my life, the first natural reaction when a human being or animal attacks you is to scream. That's usually first way to defend yourself as well. Well, that's my understanding. Is that really called hysteria or sensationalism now? I'm surprised!

With regards the signs, I have always seen the signs right at the entrance of the park, hence my understanding has been that dogs should always be kept on a short lead. However, I have seen dogs off lead in the off road exercise area, which I have no problem with simply because I do not walk there. Others might have an issue with that.

I cannot clarify any further I think. I will post what the council thinks when they reply.

[chuff]

If they reply...

[first mate]

SueOrr0103,

Given that you say the dog leapt at you and there was contact then I can understand your fear and your anger. I very much doubt that the dog was behaving agressively, it sounds as though it was rambunctious. If the owner had apologised there and then and immediately put her dog on a lead, something most of us here would have done, I don't suppose you would have felt the need to complain.

It stands to reason that if you don't much like dogs and would prefer them to be at a distance from you that you are probably not adept at reading their body language and knowing what is aggressive and what is playful, though very inappropriate. I understand that you felt attacked but hope you might agree that in reality the dog was badly behaved and the owner was inappropriate in her reaction to your fear.

Having reread your first post I do see that you state that you had a terrible walk because you feared all the time that a dog would come charging at you. Prior to this you state that usually you don't mind dogs offlead, because they don't come charging at you. It is the case that dogs are allowed to be off the lead in certain sections of the park and although I think it is unlikely that you will be jumped on again that will not assuage your fear around dogs that are not on a lead. I think this is a dilemma for you and I don't think there is an easy solution.

That aside, I hope you appreciate that the majority of dog owners are considerate of others but that sometimes dogs and owners can fail to be as well behaved as they should be.

There are those in the council who would like to see all dogs on leads all the time and that would not only remove the pleasure of dog ownership but also impact on the welfare of the dogs. In general dogs are good for people and for children and bring many positives to our lives. Only today two toddlers stopped with their parents and asked if they could stroke my dog, which of course I let them do. The delight on the faces of those children was plain to see.

[SueOrr0103]

Appreciate that first mate and thanks for putting it well. As I mentioned in my very first post, I do know that not all dog owners are unreasonable/ rude.

But I get very annoyed when I'm told to be off parks, or that I'm insane or that I have some kind of a strange phobia/ disorder because I don't like dogs jumping on me. I can understand that dog owners find their dogs leaping/ jumping/ charging on to others very cute. But they should understand that some people in this world are actually scared of that kind of behaviour. And we have as much right over access to parks and public spaces as those. So while I don't go running after and jumping on people's dogs in parks I expect the same treatment.

[Penguin68]

I think the point people are making about phobias is that there are good and proven methods to desensitive people against fears - sometimes (pace also the discussion about aircraft noise) it is more effective and addressable to change yourself rather than change the world.

[first mate]

Sue, As I said before I would like to see compulsory training -owners first, dogs second :)- for those that let their dogs behave inappropriately. I sincerely hope though that you will give us dog owners another chance and not join the ranks of those that would like to see all dogs on leads all the time in any public place. I rather hope that the omwr of the dog who was rude to you might have had a chance to think things through too. You never know she might be a reader here.

Just one more point, jumping up is a normal dog behaviour, they want to get close to your face to greet you. Each and every dog owner has to train their dog not to do this. Teenage dogs, like teenage humans, are often the worst offenders and the effects of hormone surges and general joie de vivre can cause a formerly well behaved pup to suddenly go through a kevin stage. I am not for one minute defending this dog's behaviour but you might feel less nervous in future if you see the dog for what it probably is, an OTT, ill-mannered teenager. Believe it or not, it was most likely a really clumsy way of trying to greet you and get you to notice him/her, it almost certainly would not have wanted to harm you. A dog that wanted to harm you would not have stopped. Sometimes standing still, drawing yourself up to your full height, with a very stern face, and putting your hand out in a police-style stop signal at the dog, is enough to stop a dog in its tracks.

Finally, dogs that randomly attack people out of the blue in a public place are really rare, by that I mean leaving the safety of their owner and actively going after someone. People mostly get attacked by dogs in public places when they try to intervene in a dog fight and that is because the dogs are in such a high state of arousal that they are not thinking about what they are doing. If dogs are fearful of people to the point they are highly aggressive it would have to be a very odd owner that just let them off in the park to run around- though idiots exist for sure. A dog that is highly fearful of people is more likely to avoid rather than charge you. Most dog on human attacks happen in the home or around the territory of the home, or where a highly fearful dog is appraoched by a human without being able to escape. I only say this to put your mind at rest.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

[Domme_Jay]

There will always be the odd dog running wild, is there something you could carry to make you feel safer? I regularly go to parks, and occasionally get a friendly dog come up to me. I used to be a bit nervous of dogs, kept forcing myself to stroke and chat to owners, it helped.

good luck.

[treehugger]

First mate, you are always so sensible and informative in the advice that you give to us all on the forum re the very emotional topic of dogs. Thank you

[mako]

Sue

Dont let anyone tell you that you have a phobia. A fear of unknown dogs is entirely rational, and dogs should obviously be muzzled in public areas. Many on this thread completely miss the point about the reaction of the owner and will take a 'pro' dog atance whenever any thread is posted about dogs and try and pick at small bits of the post rather than the key points. the dog was not under control, was therefore potentially dangerous and therefore the owenrs reaction was very poor.

[first mate]

Mako, fear of the unknown is a normal biological instinct but learning about potentially harmful things enables us to give our fears a rational context, otherwise we would never step outside our home. Mortality stats show that the risk of death from a dog is lower than accidental drowning in the bath, being struck by lightning, being struck by a bicycle or car, or other vehicle, being attacked by a human, not to mention germs, viruses and other hidden nasties.

Again, unless the dog has something really wrong with it the culprit is the owner and I can assure you the really bad dog owners will be the ones that never muzzle their dog. A muzzle does nothing to stop a dog jumping up.

[Penguin68]

A fear of unknown dogs is entirely rational

Context is key here - unknown dogs in e.g. India or Africa may well be a threat (where rabies is endemic), but the vast majority of dogs in ED are owned responsibly and are people friendly (and not diseased).

My experience (I am not a current dog owner, and haven't been for more than 40 years) is that you are more likely to be bitten by a small dog than a large one. So being frightened of big, bouncy, dogs in ED (unless you are easily knocked over and have physical vulnerability) is, in fact, irrational (in the sense that there is a very high probability that you will be safe). A very small amount of self-training (with perhaps a dog trainer) will give you the appropriate mannerisms to communicate to dogs that you are not either a threat or a potential 'victim'.

Most people have phobias - it is whether you allow them to rule your life or find coping mechanisms to address then which is key. I, certainly am, and have been, phobic. Some I have addressed, some (those which are rarely encountered) I have learnt to avoid, but if I had a fear of dogs and wanted to visit London parks this is one phobia I would do something about.

An ability to be able to 'cope' with dogs will make park visits much more enjoyable for you. Equally, training will allow you to be more clearly aware of dog 'body language' so that you will be able to discriminate between the vast majority (in ED) of harmless mutts and the very few which may be a threat. [That will include 'good' dogs which may protect their owners against perceived threat as well as the very few rogue 'bully' dogs or ones actually trained to be aggressive].

[And, by the way, screaming is probably not a good tactic where dogs are concerned, although perfectly safe with mice or spiders]

[StraferJack]

a lot of very good points about phobias undermined sliiightly by this

" by the way, screaming is probably not a good tactic where dogs are concerned, "

if it was just a phobia, why would I be worried if I screamed (rhetorical question)

The chances of being attacked are of course miniscule - but not impossible and not inconsequential if it comes to pass. Telling people how to behave around dogs in a public space is wrong priority IMO

(I'm against dog muzzling btw, I'm not anti them in any real sense. But they aren't quite the no-danger-huggables portrayed by some)

[Penguin68]

a lot of very good points about phobias undermined sliiightly by this

" by the way, screaming is probably not a good tactic where dogs are concerned, "

Sorry - but screaming is likely to excite dogs (who have very good hearing) more - the OP said she had screamed when 'attacked'. Screaming if you are attacked by a person has the effect of calling attention to your situation for passers-by to assist, something a human attacker will recognise, but not a dog. So screaming, even if involuntary (as I assume it was) will not tend to quieten down a dog attack (or even being bounced by an over friendly dog).

[Otta]

What SJ said.

Also there was a post earlier that suggested that only abused dogs will bite. Total nonsense. We had a dog when I was a kid that hsd to be out down after taking chunks iut of my mum's arm. The arm that fed, walked and stroked him every day. Like people, some dogs are just wired wrong.

[StraferJack]

that was exacly my point

dogs don't react well to screaming so telling someone not to scream puts the onus on the person rather than the more obvious "hmmm dogs aren't always as under our control as we think"

[KidKruger]

Like people.

[StraferJack]

facile point KK

dogs people

see?

[Penguin68]

Once you think you are being attacked, philosophical discussion about where 'blame' should sit is irrelevant, you want (presumably) to avoid exacerbating the occasion, so if you can suppress screaming, it's a good idea, if attacked by a dog, to do that. Learning that most approaches by dogs (in ED) don't require a panic 'scream' response would also be sensible.

Dogs may not always be fully 'under control' - but the choices are not binary - 'in full control' or 'savagely mad attack dog' - most 'out of control' dogs in ED are still mostly harmless.

[grabot]

"Mortality stats show that the risk of death from a dog is lower than accidental drowning in the bath, being struck by lightning, being struck by a bicycle or car, or other vehicle, being attacked by a human, not to mention germs, viruses and other hidden nasties."

And with the exception of baths these are all things that people fear. If a car, person, cyclist or lightning strike directs itself towards a person at high speed, they are entitled to be very afraid. Death is not the only thing to fear of course. Maiming, or even getting muddy pawprints on a nice coat or trousers are things to cause legimate fear IMHO.

[KidKruger]

"facile point KK

dogs people

see ?

"

No. I was responding to Otta's comment.

[mako]

'Mako, fear of the unknown is a normal biological instinct but learning about potentially harmful things enables us to give our fears a rational context,'. I agree I learnt about potentially harmful dogs when my father in law was attacked by a jack russell last year whilst out running and as well as twenty stitches required he had 4 months of skin grafts. I still see no reason why all dogs shouldnt be muzzled in public areas.

[first mate]

I have every sympathy for you father in law. However, I still maintain that these kind of incidents are not the norm. Again, the kind of owner that would allow a human aggressive dog to run around off lead is unlikely to muzzle them. The only people who will comply are the majority of responsible dog owners and they own the dogs that do not need to be muzzled. As I said muzzling does not address jumping up or even poor recall.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The trade in buying and selling live animals and who can own them should be more tightly controlled IMO.