'No Cry? ? Thoughts please!

[Specklemum]

Hi all, has anyone else tried the ?No Cry Sleep Solution?? Be really interested to hear of any experiences others have had with this, good and bad.

After initially treating us to 6-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep when he was a few weeks old (ah, the good old days! If only we had known?), since hitting 4 months, our wee man has had us up and down all night. On good nights, we may get up to 2 hours at a time, but it?s often more like 1, and very difficult to get him down at all after 4am. He?s now 7 months old, and has two very foggy-headed parents!

So... we thought we?d give this approach a go, but after several weeks we don?t seem to be making much progress. On the plus side, it is a bit quicker and easier to settle him and get him down at bedtime, and we do sometimes manage to get him down sleepy but awake (a small miracle the first time!). Trouble is, he?s still waking up just as often ? if not more so ? than when we started.

Be great to compare notes with anyone else who is trying/tried this approach. We were prepared for this taking some time and patience, but it?s starting to feel like a real slog and we?re not sure whether to persevere or try something else.

Thanks!

[Saffron]

I used some of the tips from the 'No Cry' book. Success was mixed, either helped or made no difference at least. I also got some tips from 'The Good Sleep Guide', mainly the milk to water fade for nighttime feeds I think.

Some children just aren't great sleepers. The main thing is to be realistic about what helps and what makes it worse. I eventually went back to cosleeping because at least that way I actually got some sleep.

Also be realistic about what normal baby sleep is, and the time scale it will take to change it - especially for difficult sleepers. Probably 6-12 weeks for any for any 'permanent' improvement.

Avoid smug sleep parents like the plague. They have no idea what you're enduring. And try to congratulate yourself on the smallest progress. You've earned it. xx

[astrid83]

Bought the book and never got to read it, was just too tired to pick it up...

So don't have any advice or suggestions to make. It seems like, as Saffron said, that some babies are just not that great at sleeping. My 8-month old have just started sleeping better, but I have not done anything to help him. I have friends who have sleep trained their babies but I just don't seem to have it in me, although it did work for them.

I really hope your little one sleeps better soon and that you get some good nights. All babies starts sleeping better at some point, although it might not feel like it when you are in the middle of sleep deprivation.

[klove]

Ahhh the four month sleep regression! I remember it well (shudder), poor you, it's pretty grim. The 'No Cry' book actually made me actually feel worse because nothing suggested made any difference to our baby.

The one book that gave some useful suggestions was Andrea Grace's 'Gentle Sleep Solutions' and we then did some soft approach sleep training at eight months which took about two weeks from waking up every 2 to 3 hours to sleeping through the night. It also improved his naps and our family's quality of life improved no end.

Good luck and it will get better!

[EmilyPie]

Having just got some advice from a sleep specialist her view was that most techniques will work eventually for most children. However the gentler technique tend to take longer. However, consistency is crucial otherwise they get mixed messages and you can easily lose any progress you've made. Only just started so can't claim success yet but the theory makes sense. That said, I didn't actually use the no cry methods. I did read the book but found it all a bit difficult to put in place and get straight in my head, given my sleep deprived state.

If you wanted to try something else there are other, gentler methods you can use, like gradual retreat or versions of controlled crying where you pick them up and comfort them until they're calm (I think). So you wouldn't have to go to cc if you didn't want to.

I think it is a case of weighing it all up. How exhausted you are, what other commitment you have (eg work, other children) and how able you are to meet these, how able you are to parent during the day in a way you are comfortable with, how safe you are doing stuff like driving, how much of a toll the sleep deprivation is taking on your own mental health, whether you think that you are better able to cope with a longer process where you are able to offer more comfort, or whether you think a faster process but with more crying would suit your personality/anxieties. Also, as others have said, nearly all children will sleep eventually, although it can take years so again depends how you are coping whether you want to try and expedite the process!

Wishing you lots and lots of luck. Hope it gets better soon!

[EmilyPie]

Oh, the other thing that the sleep specialist I spoke to talked to me about was his day time routine. So for instance, I was still bf my 7mo on demand but he was snacking all the time, including about every hour or more all might, and not interested in solids. We've moved to 4 hourly feeds and it has really helped both with interest in solids and with getting him to take more at a time so he's fuller overnight. Obviously each child will be different but worth thinking about day time habits and routines as well as just night time.

[Specklemum]

Thanks for the replies & suggestions. It sounds as though you all understand from experience how far a few words of support and encouragement can go when you?ve had so little sleep :-) When I can get my sleepy-head into gear I?m going to look into some alternatives. We have fairly modest hopes - even 2-3 wakings a night would be fab compared with now. And when little one cries, he REALLY cries. So we feel sticking to the gentler end of the spectrum is the right thing for us. But my maternity leave (and indeed, sanity!) won?t last forever, so options beyond ?No Cry? would be good?

Saffron ? I?ve been wondering for some time whether to try to embrace co-sleeping rather than fight it. Unfortunately I?ve never really got on with it, mainly as the little one thrashes around and I?ve also never fully got the hang of feeding lying down. In practice though, he ends up in our bed beyond a certain time, so if all else fails, we may go this route. We have a king-size bed on order which should give more wriggle room!

Astrid, glad to hear you?re getting a better night?s sleep, that must have been a wonderful surprise. Feel similar to you on CC. Most of our NCT group have gone that way and do appear to have had a lot of success, but we don?t feel it?s right for us.

klove ? I?m going to take a look at the Andrea Grace book. Other half came across her website when looking up sleep consultants. Congrats on getting to the other side, it?s great to hear a success story. I can believe it?s transformed your family?s quality of life ? our little one recently teased us with one night where he slept for 3 hours at a time, which pretty much had us high on sleep the next day, so who knows what a full night could do!

EmilyPie ? that?s really interesting what you said about your little one snacking, as you basically described our feeding set-up here. Would love to hear how you get on having consulted the sleep expert, as that?s something we?re considering doing. I don?t really expect to be told anything radically new from what I?ve read elsewhere, but we thought it might help us stay on track.

[Saffron]

It was the milk to water fade, with some shush-patting that got us down from 5+ night wakings/frequent night feeds, to around 2 wakings. This was at a similar age to your LO. I was breastfeeding, but my LO would take a bottle during the night just fine. xx

[EmilyPie]

We used nicola watson from child sleep solutions. As you can see from the fact that I am writing this at silly o clock the problem is by no means solved, but it is, after a truly horrendous first night, definitely improving. We are on night 3 so far. A lot of what she said was stuff I'd heard before or might have been able to work out for myself if I wasn't so sleep deprived. However, the stuff around changing the daytime feeding routine and around naps I probably wouldn't have thought of and has been very helpful. The real value was in having someone put it all together into a plan, so when you're desperate you aren't standing in the darkness with no idea what you're supposed to be doing. I also find that just having a proper, written down plan has given me confidence. She was also very nice and sympathetic which helps. We didn't go for the full package, because we were confident we could implement the plan, but I imagine the ongoing support would be reassuring. We have gone for the controlled crying option but she talked me through the whole range of methods, including various gentler approaches. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. Good luck!

[Specklemum]

That sounds promising, thanks again. We're now masters at shush-patting :-)

Saffron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It was the milk to water fade, with some

> shush-patting that got us down from 5+ night

> wakings/frequent night feeds, to around 2 wakings.

> This was at a similar age to your LO. I was

> breastfeeding, but my LO would take a bottle

> during the night just fine. xx

[Specklemum]

Thanks EmilyPie, will do. Hope you have a better night tonight.

EmilyPie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We used nicola watson from child sleep solutions.

> As you can see from the fact that I am writing

> this at silly o clock the problem is by no means

> solved, but it is, after a truly horrendous first

> night, definitely improving. We are on night 3 so

> far. A lot of what she said was stuff I'd heard

> before or might have been able to work out for

> myself if I wasn't so sleep deprived. However, the

> stuff around changing the daytime feeding routine

> and around naps I probably wouldn't have thought

> of and has been very helpful. The real value was

> in having someone put it all together into a plan,

> so when you're desperate you aren't standing in

> the darkness with no idea what you're supposed to

> be doing. I also find that just having a proper,

> written down plan has given me confidence. She was

> also very nice and sympathetic which helps. We

> didn't go for the full package, because we were

> confident we could implement the plan, but I

> imagine the ongoing support would be reassuring.

> We have gone for the controlled crying option but

> she talked me through the whole range of methods,

> including various gentler approaches. Feel free to

> PM me if you have any other questions. Good luck!

[Saffron]

Good luck, Specklemum! Gentle sleep solutions can take a while to produce results, but once established they're less likely to have rebound effects. There's no perfect sleep solution of course, but at least you have a lot of support and sympathy from Forumites. xx

[Shula]

maybe he is hungry, try and give him an extra bottle

[scareyt]

I had a terrible sleeper and did the "no cry" stuff at around 11 months and it worked. Not like magic, but definitely helped. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have worked any earlier though as he was small and just needed to feed a lot. Could you fit an extra mattress on the floor in either his room or your room? It might make co-sleeping a more comfortable option for a few months until you're ready to try again. My sister raised 4 kids without ever buying a cot - the baby slept on a single mattress next to their low futon bed so she only had to roll over to sort them out if they woke and everyone got enough sleep.

We found that none of us got much sleep if we were all in the same bed so I used to move into a double bed in the baby's room at some point during the night and sometimes went back and forth if he settled easily but usually I woke up there in the morning. It wasn't perfect but it worked well enough and was so much less miserable being able to lie down and feed somewhere warm and comfortable for those gruesome 4am wakings!

[AnyaJoeli]

Another vote for Andrea Grace's gentle sleep solutions here, it literally saved my life and my sanity. I had a non-sleeper, he never slept for longer than 3 hours until he was about 13 months (either in our bed or in his cot, we tried it all?) so it wasn't really a regression more like a prolonged period of insomnia that we struggled with, I read all the sleep books in increasing desperation and gentle sleep solutions was the only one that seemed to offer something that i could realistically apply to him. And it took a month or so, and then some, of consistently applying the techniques, and now he's a "normal" toddler who wakes occasionally but can reasonably be expected to sleep through most nights until about 6am, which I will happily accept compared to over a year of no decent chunks of sleep at all.

we do still have a double futon on his floor which is a kind of comfy story corner by day and parent sanctuary by night if we do need to go and settle him in a night waking we can snuggle up in a duvet. Possibly not encouraging him that effectively to self settle, but it beats lying on the floor with your head against the cot?

x

[Specklemum]

Thanks so much for the latest replies ? lots of pragmatic advice there, which is just what we?re after.

The little one went down with his first cold, poor thing, so the last week we?ve put all thoughts of improving the situation on hold, and just been trying to get him through the night as comfortably as possible ? which has mostly meant lots of cuddles in bed with his (also poorly..) mum! We?ve lost most of the little bit of progress we had made. But for now, it?s going to need to be an exercise in maximising sleep for everyone by whatever means, until we?re all feeling better rested and ready for round two! The extra mattress/futon suggestion sounds good and we?re going to give that a try.

Thanks again everyone. It really helps to know we?re not the only ones who have gone through this. x

[Saffron]

Second vote for futon in the little one's room when they're not sharing your room! It makes everything so much easier at night. xx

[canela]

another vote for futon. needs must, and sometimes the priority is just for everyone to get some proper sleep.

[JayJay5]

hiya

i went to an amazing conference about babies last week where we were told that research has shown that sleep training approaches don't actually make a difference in the long term - they often help for a week or four, but over longer periods babies revert to old - or form new - patterns

i thought that was interesting

they were also saying how very different babies' sleep patterns are from adults (like we don't know that) but that it is during sleep that baby's brains 'wire and fire' - ie process and lay down neural networks which become life long learning. thus it is advised not to interrupt a baby's natural sleep pattern - they sleep the way their physiological needs demand.

also some really interesting new stuff coming out about problems associated with the fact that everyone now puts babies on their back to sleep, because of the reducation in cot death. apparently the reaons the babies don't experience cot death on their backs is cos sleeping on their backs is inherently stressful for babies and they never fall into as deep a sleep as they do in other positions, which means their brains don't form as they would otherwise.... golly, what is a mother to do?!

the guy speaking was called Nils Bergman, he's a South African Dr and world -renowned neonatal 'expert; please google him if you want more info on that

[EmilyPie]

If babies sleep the way their physiological needs demand then mother nature was clearly having a really bad day when mine was designed. Waking up every 45mins to an hour, all night, every night, despite being not just in the bed but on mummy's chest, at 6 months. What sort of needs is that designed to meet ffs!!! Not trying to knock the research but it would be nice if these guys also took into account the physiological needs of parents too!

[scareyt]

Argh EmilyPie that's a pretty brutal regime! I feel for you and have no ideas but lots of sympathy.

In retrospect, I wish I had embraced our cosleeping situation a bit more as a positive decision. I always felt like I had failed to get him to sleep the way "everyone else" did and beat myself up about it. If I had read some of the more hippyish attachment parenting books instead of the Baby Whisperer I would have been a lot happier with how we were doing things! And I also had a permanent fear that we were creating a monster who would never sleep by indulging him when he was little, which I don't think now he's nearly 4 was true at all - mostly he sleeps through now for around 11 hours but occasionally goes through phases of turning up in our bed 3 times a night, and it seems to be pretty random...

[Saffron]

EmilyPie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If babies sleep the way their physiological needs

> demand then mother nature was clearly having a

> really bad day when mine was designed. Waking up

> every 45mins to an hour, all night, every night,

> despite being not just in the bed but on mummy's

> chest, at 6 months. What sort of needs is that

> designed to meet ffs!!! Not trying to knock the

> research but it would be nice if these guys also

> took into account the physiological needs of

> parents too!

Yup been there. It's tough.

From an anthropological historical perspective we would have been likely to have been sleeping in large extended family groups with biphasic or triphasic sleep patterns even as adults. In many ways modernity has been great for mothers- sleep not necessarily one of them!!

[canela]

and in days gone by or in olden times we would have lived in larger family groups and have been able to go off and get a nap during the day too!