MMR and Autism- whats your opinion...

[root]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Root, I'm beginning to think you might be a

> troll...

Thanks. For suggesting that you question your GP when he suggests something that raises alarm bells?

Not a troll ... just heavily Internet connected and naturally gifted at switching very quickly between issues without losing focus on main task, which is not this thread :-)

>

> Firstly I fail to see how my GP was trying to

> swindle me out of money? In fact it's my

> understanding that GPs get paid per jab so she was

> in fact 'swindling' herself out of money by

> recommending we have separate jabs (and therefore

> go privately).

Did you take those individual jabs at the GP surgery?

>

> Secondly, I'm confused, you think a nurse should

> be struck off for a.) not vaccinating her children

> or b.) admitting to me that she has not rather

> than lying.

b) for using her position to influence your decisions

>

> You're quite the charmer.

you're welcome

[hellosailor]

Okay, perhaps you're not quite as naturally gifted at switching very quickly between issues without losing focus as you think...

My surgery and the GPs working out of it are NHS.

She recommended we have separate jabs, i.e. as I said, go private if we could afford it. You cannot have separate jabs on NHS.

So no, we didn't have the jabs at our surgery.

Secondly, the advice, from our very experienced GP, seemed wholly sensible after what had happened previously , so no, 'alarm bells' didn't ring.

Anyhoo..off to bed.

[Yuuna]

I did think root was trolling before, hence my 'protip'. If they won't be serious (by being rude), why should I think they want to be taken seriously? Remember, you wouldn't say these things to me in person as it's far easier to do it online. Apparently people dob't know what MRSA stands for or why it isn't easy to treat and they also don't believe that there are illnesses resistant to antibiotics... You were trivialising the many, many, problems in Africa as if only vaccinations could or would help; they won't. I have not trivialised anything. I have given true examples of suffering; war, starvation and rape. Disease is not their only problem and your arguments and it seems you, do not want to acknowledge that. I think it is best we stick with problems we can truly relate to here, not in a place we can only imagine what it is like. That was CLEARLY my point you deliberately sidestepped. Calling my posts idiotic won't change that. Insult to your heart's content, it only further invalidates your points. I know how to make a point and not be deliberately rude. One can disagree with another and still be civil. Try it some time. I will also add that David, it is nice of you to highlight the chosen quotes you used yet you only chose to respond the points that suited your agenda, clearly. I could highlight your insults and clear confirmation bias but what's the point? You didn't enter this discussion to truly partake in a constructive manner. Encourage others to mock me if you wish, you'll find I'm not easily intimidated by that behaviour. I think people should remember to think before they write. I am interested to know others' thoughts on the subject but I see no reason why some choose to contribute to just be insulting. You're obviously not winning anyone...

Anyway, I was going to mention that in India apparently polio is on the rise after vaccinations were introduced...

Regardless, I'm not here to convince people to not vaccinate their children, I just wanted people to try and see the other arguments and be open to data not widely available in media due to it being unfavourable to vaccinate companies etc. It's still surprising how much faith people seem to have in organisations that have been so deceitful and unscrupulous in the past. Perhaps I am more suspicious, but why shouldn't I be? Would you trust a government that knowingly sends vaccinations they won't use on their children abroad to use on 'foreign' children? That makes me angry and sad for the families who have suffered. I have read from many doctors that they think vaccination injuries are a necessary 'sacrifice' for the 'greater good'. Very few seem to think we owe those children anything for being unwilling 'sacrifices'. (I believe one sacrifices oneself so a child is not a willing participant). Most it seems, think otherwise, which is why vaccination victims have discredited, shunned and purposely had their voices silenced...is that right? Sapre a thought for these people, or do you think there are no vaccination victims (those that have adverse reactions)? Some do. Some people even deny that there are even people who

I think that Saffron posted a link to an article that has been circulating around the Internet and I came across one woman's take on it. There have been claims that the post Saffron provided a link to is a hoax written by a CDC employee to use as 'pro vaccine' propaganda and apparently doctors are handing it out to patients as a kind of justification for vaccinations, like it's proof. Obviously, as Saffron pointed out, personal accounts are just that; personal accounts. Don't simply be swayed by them alone, regardless of your views on vaccinations. http://www.modernalternativemama.com/blog/2014/01/10/growing-up-unvaccinated-scary-potential-or-healthy-reality/#.UubUe1NFBPG

Please bear in mind that I am not posting it as an authoritative view. It is simply one woman's take on the article. She is trying to shed light on it. She raises some interesting points, I think. I have copied the text and posted it also. I also appeal to people to stop assuming people who don't vaccinate their children are therefore 'crazy' or 'selfish' we are not. That is offensive to say and you know it. I am annoyed by it because it shows that the propaganda has won many people over. A differing opinion does not render someone idiotic, as others would have you believe.

"There is a pro- vaccination article circulating the internet right now. You may have seen it ? most people have. It was originally published at ?Voices for Vaccines,? and later republished on Slate, Jezebel, and several smaller blogs. The blogosphere is abuzz with this story. It?s called ?Growing Up Unvaccinated.? There are two general thoughts about it right now:

Good, finally. Maybe all those silly anti-vax people will finally listen and get their kids vaccinated.

and

This is pure propaganda nonsense. Who is she kidding? You can drive a Mac Truck through the holes in this story.

I can?t prove one way or another if the story was real. Maybe it was. Or maybe it is only propaganda. Here is the most important thing to remember, though: this is one woman?s story and opinion. It is not science. It is not data. It is not a reason to make a decision on this very important issue. Anecdotes from either side are just that: anecdotes. Ignore them.

Why All The Fuss?

For some reason, many people who strongly believe in vaccines are very fond of saying ?The plural of anecdote is not data,? and they immediately dismiss any story about vaccine reactions or any anecdote that may be ?anti-vax? no matter how many there are. Yet, they?re spreading this story as far and wide as possible. They?re championing it. What a great story! What a great way to get peoples? attention!

It should be understood that everyone, regardless of their opinion on a topic, will naturally side with information that confirms what they believe, and will be naturally critical of information that goes against what they believe. It is called confirmation bias. That is exactly what is happening here. The people sharing the story don?t seem to understand that they are engaging in this behavior; if they do, they don?t care.

Since I?m not a fan of emotional manipulation and attempts to force people into making certain medical decisions, I?m going to break the article down and explain why so many are angry about it. I?ll point out all the sections that have raised questions or concerns and explain why they have. Then I?ll leave it to you to decide whether you believe this story or not, as well as ? as always ? what decision on vaccines is right for your family.

I don?t abide by bullying?and that?s what this was (or at least, that?s how it?s being used).

Breaking Down the Story

My goal is to share several inconsistencies as well as simply incorrect or abusive statements.

I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar til I was one, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame.

Aspartame wasn?t approved in the UK until 1982, and wasn?t used in many popular products until the late 80s. The author, according to her bio, was born in 1976. It wouldn?t have been an issue for the author, very likely, since it wasn?t really in common use until she was older.

?I would?ve killed for white, shop-bought bread in my lunch box once in a while and biscuits instead of fruit like all the other kids.

This statement sets up resentment towards the parents ? implying that parents who offer their kids a healthy diet are doing them a disservice, that their children will rebel, and dismissing the impact that a healthy diet has on a person?s overall health.

As healthy as my lifestyle seemed, I contracted measles, mumps, rubella, a type of viral meningitis, scarlatina, whooping cough, yearly tonsillitis, and chickenpox, some of which are vaccine preventable. In my twenties I got precancerous HPV?

There were no vaccines for most of these illnesses. Only measles, mumps, rubella, and whooping cough. Viral meningitis, scarlatina, tonsillitis, chicken pox, and HPV did not have vaccines at this time. Mixing these illnesses all together in a long list makes it look scarier than it really is. Vaccines, even if they work as intended, do not prevent against other illnesses (like tonsillitis). Some parents believe that they do, but this is simply false. HPV is a sexually-transmitted disease that can be prevented by abstinence, safe sex practices, and regular pap smears.

?mummy might have cancer before it was safely removed.

I can?t help but note that the author overcame all the illnesses she faced. She did not have any complications, lasting damage, and obviously did not die. She doesn?t even mention any hospitalizations (until age 21, which was not for a vaccine-preventable illness) ? so they couldn?t have even been that bad.

So having the ?natural immunity sterilised out of us? just doesn?t cut it for me. How could I, with my idyllic childhood and my amazing health food, get so freaking ill all the time?

This statement implies that the steps her mother took ? alternative health and good food ? were (are) useless to prevent disease, and that vaccines are the only (best) solution. It casts doubt on relying on a healthy lifestyle. (Although, again ? she may have gotten sick ? but she came through just fine! Could that have been because of her lifestyle?)

My two vaccinated children, on the other hand, have rarely been ill, have had antibiotics maybe twice in their lives, if that (not like me who got so many illnesses which needed treatment with antibiotics that I developed a resistance to them, which led me to be hospitalized with penicillin-resistant quinsy at 21?you know that old fashioned disease that killed Queen Elizabeth I and which was almost wiped out through use of antibiotics.

Ah, there it is. Vaccines are the solution. They prevent (all) illness. But, wait a minute ? she developed resistance to antibiotics by the age of 21? Most ?super crunchy? parents do not get antibiotics very often, if at all. They use natural remedies to treat. So why did she have antibiotics all that often? Either her parents weren?t really crunchy, or they are trying to say that when natural remedies ?inevitably? fail, people fall back to using antibiotics (apparently frequently). Casting more doubt on using natural remedies.

As for quinsy, it occurs when you don?t treat strep throat (but wait ? didn?t she have antibiotics a lot? wasn?t it treated?), it did not kill the queen, who was 70 years old (in the 1600s, when this age was extremely old). It?s also extremely uncommon because strep throat is usually treated early on. These are simply a bunch of false statements to make antibiotics look like major champions and natural remedies look useless.

I struggle to understand why I know far more people who have experienced complications from preventable childhood illnesses than I have EVER met with complications from vaccines. I have friends who became deaf from measles. I have a partially sighted friend who contracted rubella in the womb. My ex got pneumonia from chickenpox. A friend?s brother died from meningitis.

The most likely explanation for the first statement ? that she hasn?t met anyone with complications from vaccines ? is that it isn?t something people talk about. Plus, vaccines weren?t that commonly used until the late 80s in the UK, so cases of these illnesses were more common and vaccine reactions, obviously less common. It certainly isn?t something the media talks about. But it?s everywhere. As for the other illnesses, these complications are, in fact, rare. Knowing a few people who did have complications doesn?t mean that they are actually that common.

?anecdotes are the anti-vaccine supporter?s way.

100% incorrect and insulting. There is a wide body of scientific evidence to support the notion that vaccines may not be as safe as believed, and that there may even be benefits to catching some of these diseases. Anyone who says this clearly hasn?t done a thorough search into the anti-vaccine science and is attempting to discredit the entire notion. There are even doctors and researchers in prominent positions who have spoken out and asked for more research into vaccine safety, but the have been ignored. (Bernadette Healy, for one.)

I was studying homeopathy, herbalism and aromatherapy; I believed in angels, witchcraft, clairvoyants, crop circles, aliens at Nazca, giant ginger mariners spreading their knowledge to the Aztecs, the Incas and the Egyptians and that I was somehow personally blessed by the Holy Spirit with healing abilities. I was having my aura read at a hefty price and filtering the fluoride out of my water. I was choosing to have past life regressions instead of taking anti-depressants. I was taking my daily advice from tarot cards. I grew all my own veg and made my own herbal remedies. I was so freaking crunchy that I literally crumbled. It was only when I took control of those paranoid thoughts and fears about the world around me and became an objective critical thinker that I got well. It was when I stopped taking sugar pills for everything and started seeing medical professionals that I began to thrive physically and mentally.

This entire paragraph is nonsense. It?s mixing ?normal? things ? like being cautious about fluoride in water (which, by the way, the vast majority of the UK doesn?t even have) ? with ?out there? things like tarot cards and clairvoyants. It?s subtly suggesting that anyone who believes in anything natural is basically crazy and believes in magic, not solid, science-based natural options. It also suggests that herbal and natural remedies are ?sugar pills? and that this sort of natural life is driven by paranoid, irrational fears.

Where to even start? I can?t. It?s simply nonsense. Perhaps she had these issues (some have said she?s been diagnosed with bipolar), but this is not how most people who choose a natural lifestyle think.

If you think your child?s immune system is strong enough to fight off vaccine-preventable diseases, then it?s strong enough to fight off the tiny amounts of dead or weakened pathogens present in any of the vaccines.

This is a red herring. Nobody who chooses not to get vaccines does so because they think their child can?t handle the antigens. They are concerned about the other ingredients in vaccines ? a fact that almost all pro-vax people intentionally ignore. Injecting aluminum (injecting, not consuming orally, which is very different) into a tiny body is very concerning. The actual antigens are not.

Don?t teach your child to be self serving and scared of the world in which it lives and the people around him/her. And teach them to LOVE people with ASD or any other disability for that matter, not to label them as damaged.

This is calling all parents who don?t vaccinate selfish. And saying that by saying that children with ASD need to ?recover? from vaccine damage (which many mothers do believe), is labeling them negatively. I don?t have a vaccine-injured child, but I can only imagine how heartbreaking it is to read these words if you do have one.

?knowingly exposing your child to childhood illnesses is cruel; even without complications these diseases aren?t exactly pleasant.

No, they?re not. But neither are potential vaccine complications. No parent wants to see their child suffer, but they have to weigh the risks and benefits of any choice so that they can do what is right for them. Parents who choose not to vaccinate don?t do it so that they can get their kids sick. And if their kids do get sick (no matter what they have), they don?t leave them to suffer, they offer comfort measures! This is?implying parents are heartless and don?t really love their children if they don?t vaccinate, which is ridiculous.

Those of you who have avoided childhood illnesses without vaccines are lucky. You couldn?t do it without us pro-vaxxers. Once the vaccination rates begin dropping, the less herd immunity will be able to protect your children. The more people you convert to your anti-vax stance, the quicker that luck will run out.

Another appeal to herd immunity, and a subtle threat to vaccinate ?or else.? Most people who don?t vaccinate don?t believe in herd immunity and are not afraid of these illnesses.

On a personal note, my kids have had rubella, pertussis (including the baby) and likely mumps, and we have had no issues. Nothing scary. No complications. Not even a visit to the doctor. Kids can, and do, come through these illnesses with no problems.

The Bottom Line

There have been wild accusations flying around, accusing the author of actually being an employee at the CDC. I can?t find anything to confirm that.

And you know, maybe it is just one mom?s heartfelt, fervent story. Maybe she did have a terrible, illness-ridden childhood and she now believes vaccines are the answer. And that?s okay.

What isn?t okay is the way her words are being used. They?re being used to judge and shame parents. They?re being held up as an example of what will happen if you don?t vaccinate your children. They?re being regarded as some sort of universal truth. That is terrible.

One person?s story is one person?s story. Nothing more or less. It may jumpstart your desire to research an issue, but it shouldn?t push you into a decision. And anyone who would send you such an article and then tell you that you should make a decision because of it is wrong, and to be ignored. (I know some people send it out of concern, like ?hey, did you see this?? and that?s okay. It?s the people that say ?See, you were wrong, here.? that?s bad.)"

[hpsaucey]

root Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hpsaucey Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Lots of emotive language here as this topic

> always

> > generates. Yes lots of studies have debunked

> > concerns. But then again, people used to use

> > asbestos because it was thought to be safe and

> > used to put their children under UV lamps for

> its

> > 'health-giving benefits'.

> >

> > Times change, science changes and what we know

> and

> > understand changes - although people often have

> > short memories - so I don't personally think

> its

> > as black and white as many suggest and am sorry

> > the issue sometimes brings out dismissive

> > language.

> >

> > HP

>

> And after the woo, the hysteria, and the

> conspiracies come the deepities.

>

> Science doesn't change. Our understanding of

> science improves, and whereas in the Victorian age

> every man and his dog could come up with a

> concoction they call an elixir nowadays we have

> research laboratories, overseeing health services,

> and independent teams who shred other people's

> work so that (while it's not perfect) what makes

> sense gets adopted, improved on, and so forth. It

> is not perfect. There are financial iterests,

> lobbying, research bias, but it's our job to make

> it better not turn the clocks back to 1685.

>

> Incidentally the MMR vaccine has been around since

> the late 60s / early 70s, so we have quite a lot

> of data about it.

>

> And yes, harsh words are in order. Not just out

> of frustration in the face of wilful stupidity,

> but out of the wreckless endangerment of putting

> other people's health, including the lives of

> other people's children at risk. That is the

> simple bottom line. I repeat, in case you missed

> it. The unvaccinated population are not just

> increasing their risk of disease, but above all,

> they are increasing the risk of exposure to those

> whose immunity is compromised.

Re: the first para: AH - the Whig 'progress' view of things...although admittedly yes I wrote in haste you are right science doesn't change but then does our interpretation and understanding of science always change for the better? Doubt it. I'm pretty sure a dose of natural curiosity/cynicism is good whichever 'side' you're on.

And I repeat - there are some for whom medical reasons make whether or not to vaccinate a far more agonising decision, but then I'm sure that we've gone over and over all of this many times, and giving the benefit of the doubt - maybe this is what you mean by putting other people's children at risk.

[Yuuna]

I did think root was trolling before, hence my 'protip'. If they won't be serious (by being rude), why should I think they want to be taken seriously? Remember, you wouldn't say these things to me in person as it's far easier to do it online. Apparently people don't know what MRSA stands for or why it isn't easy to treat and they also don't believe that there are illnesses resistant to antibiotics... You were trivialising the many, many, problems in Africa as if only vaccinations could or would help; they won't. I have not trivialised anything. I have given true examples of suffering; war, starvation and rape. Disease is not their only problem and your arguments and it seems you, do not want to acknowledge that. I think it is best we stick with problems we can truly relate to here, not in a place we can only imagine what it is like. That was CLEARLY my point you deliberately sidestepped. Calling my posts idiotic won't change that. Insult to your heart's content, it only further invalidates your points. I know how to make a point and not be deliberately rude. One can disagree with another and still be civil. Try it some time. I will also add that David, it is nice of you to highlight the chosen quotes you used yet you only chose to respond to the points that suited your agenda, clearly. I could highlight your insults and clear confirmation bias but what's the point? You didn't enter this discussion to truly partake in a constructive manner. Encourage others to mock me if you wish, you'll find I'm not easily intimidated by that behaviour. I think people should remember to think before they write. I am interested to know others' thoughts on the subject but I see no reason why some choose to contribute to just be insulting. You're obviously not winning over anyone...

Anyway, I was going to mention that in India apparently polio is on the rise after vaccinations were introduced...

Regardless, I'm not here to convince people to not vaccinate their children, I just wanted people to try and see the other arguments and be open to data not widely available in media due to it being unfavourable to vaccine companies etc. It's still surprising how much faith people seem to have in organisations that have been so deceitful and unscrupulous in the past. Perhaps I am more suspicious, but why shouldn't I be? Would you trust a government that knowingly sends vaccinations they won't use on their own children abroad to use on 'foreign' children? That makes me angry and sad for the families who have suffered. I have read from many doctors that they think vaccination injuries are a necessary 'sacrifice' for the 'greater good'. Very few seem to think we owe those children anything for being unwilling 'sacrifices'. (I believe one sacrifices oneself so a child is not a willing participant). Most it seems, think otherwise, which is why vaccination victims have been discredited, shunned and purposely had their voices silenced...is that right? Spare a thought for these people, or do you think there are no vaccination victims (those that have adverse reactions)? Some do. Some people even deny their existence. Anyone heard of Dr. Offit, champion of mandatory vaccinations in America? The same doctor who thinks a child could have 10,000 vaccinations a day? He must be credible because he believes vaccinations to be totally safe. I read he even upped that number to 100,000. The way some of you have written, it seems like you would get along just fine. I on the other hand, believe you do not sacrifice others; only yourself, otherwise that is truly selfish.

I think that Saffron posted a link to an article that has been circulating around the Internet and I came across one woman's take on it. There have been claims that the post Saffron provided a link to is a hoax written by a CDC employee to use as 'pro vaccine' propaganda and apparently doctors are handing it out to patients as a kind of justification for vaccinations, like it's proof. Obviously, as Saffron pointed out, personal accounts are just that; personal accounts. Don't simply be swayed by them alone, regardless of your views on vaccinations. http://www.modernalternativemama.com/blog/2014/01/10/growing-up-unvaccinated-scary-potential-or-healthy-reality/#.UubUe1NFBPG

Please bear in mind that I am not posting it as an authoritative view. It is simply one woman's take on the article. She is trying to shed light on it. She raises some interesting points. I also appeal to people to stop assuming people who don't vaccinate their children are therefore 'crazy' or 'selfish' we are not. That is offensive to say and you know it. I am annoyed by it because it shows that the propaganda has won many people over. A differing opinion does not render someone idiotic, as others would have you believe.

[hpsaucey]

Yunna - sadly you are right - people seem to talk to each other on here in a way they would never dream of (hopefully) in person. Sometimes the forum can be a poisonous place to be.... Equally - sometimes it can be hard to resist being dragged in to it.

Anyway - I'm off post now, so I'll stop.

[Yuuna]

I posted earlier accidentally and this forum doesn't allow for a delete button... It is unfair to make parents feel bad by claiming not vaccinating their children means they put other children at risk. How so? If the other children are all vaccinated for all known diseases, what's the problem? They'll be protected, won't they? That is all just propaganda with little to no evidence to back it up. It is also undermined by disease outbreaks in vaccinated populations whose victims were all vaccinated. Well that makes no sense to me. Shame on people for scaremongering and branding others selfish. I and others who have not allowed their children to be vaccinated, am/are not responsible for the measles outbreaks in developed countries; they're only occurring in highly vaccinated areas. I'm not a bad parent for realising this.

[ianr]

The article Yuuna has dumped on us is copyright ? 2014 | Modern Alternative Mama. It can be read at http://www.modernalternativemama.com/blog/2014/01/10/growing-up-unvaccinated-scary-potential-or-healthy-reality/ if anyone wants to.

Ed: I think this thread is ripe for closing down. There has been some useful stuff on 'both' sides succinctly stated on previous pages.

[Yuuna]

Ianr I posted the link already, twice. I did not realise it was copyright, however I did post a link (twice)...

I removed the text I copied, from my second posting of it (admin please delete the first one or allow us to delete our posts, please?). I did not just dump it, Ianr, like I wrote, I did provide the link (read my post next time...?).

Is it not better to remove the thread then? If you only think 'succintly' stated points have been useful...

[root]

Yuuna Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I posted earlier accidentally and this forum

> doesn't allow for a delete button... It is unfair

> to make parents feel bad by claiming not

> vaccinating their children means they put other

> children at risk. How so? If the other children

Harsh? Maybe. Unfair? No.

> are all vaccinated for all known diseases, what's

> the problem? They'll be protected, won't they?

Please go and educate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

> That is all just propaganda with little to no

> evidence to back it up. It is also undermined by

> disease outbreaks in vaccinated populations whose

> victims were all vaccinated. Well that makes no

> sense to me. Shame on people for scaremongering

> and branding others selfish. I and others who have

> not allowed their children to be vaccinated,

> am/are not responsible for the measles outbreaks

> in developed countries; they're only occurring in

> highly vaccinated areas. I'm not a bad parent for

> realising this.

As someone already posted:

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/09/13/2617061/measles-outbreak-vaccine-beliefs/

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-antivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#axzz2r8HfEMuf

Both above pages cite various sources if you drill down.

Anyway I'm out of here.

[ianr]

Yuuna, as I've said to Admin, I'd have objected even if it had not been copyright. Discussion is not a matter of inconsiderately throwing huge chunks of verbiage at your interlocutors.

[Yuuna]

Ianr you miss my point... I posted, as I have observed others have done, so people could read the whole text not have others simply pick quotes out to use for their opinion. I understand how a discussion works. Perhaps, suggest that to others being rude? Please do not assume I was being inconsiderate, that is untrue. Also, am I missing something? You said to Admin, only about what I wrote...?

Roots, if you can't tell I was being sarcastic, then...perhaps consult Wikipedia for useful examples? Let me help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

[TE44]

Ive often saw whole links put up, its a first to hear of someone taking it to admin,

ianr your objection makes no sense to me, if its copyright and legaly not allowed fair enough,

"verbiage at your interlocutars" seriously, there has been abusive language used on this thread but you would

object to admin because you believe yuuna was inconsiderate.

As I've said before on vaccine choice, it worries me when I hear peoples extreme views on exluding unvaccinated,children, not on this particular thread but previous ones.

I can understand the reason for concern as often our concerns are the same.

With the live fluenz nasal spray being administered this winter, and the shedding of this virus

I put a link before showing 69% of children shed this vaccine in the first week. When I click on to

the link in a previous post it is no longer there but here is the latest data although harder to understan %.

http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00231907?displayxml=true

All the concerns given about unvaccinated children spreading disease especially

to immunocompromised is stated as fact when this vaccine is administered.

And as a mother in reply to my asking said yes they were told before child had it.

Many people immediately said there was a very slim chance but the clinical trial did not show that.

Regardless of my concerns I cannot imagine wanting to take the choice away from parents, blaming them personally if my

child became ill and certainly not saying they shouldnt have children.

[owlwise]

Read this about it:

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/one-map-sums-damage-caused-anti-vaccination-movement

[etta166]

or this:

http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com

[root]

This came up on my feeds a few hours ago and really cracked me up, in particular the graph for autism vs organic food:

http://www.skepticblog.org/2014/01/22/autism-and-vaccines-correlation-is-not-causation/

[david_carnell]

Excellent article, root. A simple and comprehensive rebuttal to nearly all the arguments made by the anti-vaccine lobby.

The correlation with Jenny McCarthy's career was particularly comic.

[minder]

Hope the OP is a bit clearer on what to do regarding the MMR!

I remember back in 1998 when my youngest (now 15) was due her MMR and the Andrew Wakefield scare was everywhere on the news etc. I think if I had not had two older children who had already had the jab then I probably would have had some doubts about whether to give, but she received it. Since then I've had the worry about whether to let my girls have the cervical cancer jab when they reached their teens, but they've had it.

I just wish there was a jab now for breast and ovarian cancer ....

My Mum's sister died at age 14 from Rheumatic Fever (in 1945) but rheumatic fever is now unheard of (in this country I think).

[bornagain]

I hear the nay sayers to vaccination but I can't believe their selfishness. Not just because they are not doing their part in trying to maintain the herd immunity that Britain currently enjoys. No, by not vaccinating, they are exposing their children (those that they claim to protect) to a life-time of risk.

Living in Britain your unvaccinated children may be relatively safe but what if they go abroad?

Also a lot of these childhood illnesses become MUCH more serious when you are adult. I know from painful experience as I got chicken pox in my thirties. I have NEVER been so ill in my life, and I have had my bouts of severe ill health including several abdominal operations and a 3 month stint of chemo. Chicken pox contracted as an adult tops them all.

We live in an international world where we take foreign holidays and young people go on gap year stints all over the world including areas where the health care is not that great. For their sake please get them vaccinated.

[newtoedf]

I used to think that parents who didn't vaccinate their children were only putting their own children at risk. Then I got a letter home from my daughter's nursery about a case there. My child was not quite 1 so almost due her MMR but not quite. The realisation that my child was a risk of contracting a potentially life-threatening disease because of someone else neglecting to vaccinate their child quickly changed my mind! It is with noting that some countries won't allow unvaccinated children to attend school.

[sillywoman]

This puts an interesting perspective on the Wakefield fiasco in a concise and easy-to-read format:

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

[buggie]

sillywoman Wrote:

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> This puts an interesting perspective on the

> Wakefield fiasco in a concise and easy-to-read

> format:

>

> http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

Saw this the other week & was amazed that there were even more dodgy things going on than I'd realised :-s

[Grotty]

http://thebea.st/1d94BTK

Well said

[bornagain]

Grotty Wrote:

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> http://thebea.st/1d94BTK

> Well said

Yes indeed.

[LondonMix]

The US is one of the countries that won't allow children to register for school without proof of vaccination.

For those questioning why outbreaks happen in Britain (which is highly vaccinated) and how their decision not to vaccinate their children puts other children at risk the explanation is rather straight forward.

Vaccinations work both at the level of the individual and via herd immunity. Even though Britain still has a resaonably high vaccination rate, in certain areas, it is falling below the level at which herd immunity is effective.

Diseases like measles are so contagious that without vaccination virtually every child would catch it at some point in their lives. When immunisation rates are high, the disease cannot easily spread to those that are too young or too sick (under going cancer treatment / suffering from an autoimmune disease etc) to be vaccinated-this is herd immunity. Allowing vaccination levels to fall below the herd immunity level puts these people at greater risk of infection.

Therefore, the decision not to vaccinate your child increases the risk that your child will contract the disease and also increases the risk that other children too young or too sick for vaccinations will contract the disease and suffer severe complications.

newtoedf Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I used to think that parents who didn't vaccinate

> their children were only putting their own

> children at risk. Then I got a letter home from my

> daughter's nursery about a case there. My child

> was not quite 1 so almost due her MMR but not

> quite. The realisation that my child was a risk of

> contracting a potentially life-threatening disease

> because of someone else neglecting to vaccinate

> their child quickly changed my mind! It is with

> noting that some countries won't allow

> unvaccinated children to attend school.