MMR and Autism- whats your opinion...

[StraferJack]

that is an option but why would you take it?

What is it about the MMR jab that would make you consider spending hard cash?

[root]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is a middle ground too, tho it's expensive

> unfortunately and therefore I understand not a

> choice everyone could make, but if you want your

> child vaccinated but don't want the MMR, you can

> pay privately for separate jabs, which is what we

> did. We did not want the MMR (nothing to do with

> Wakefield, I have never read his claims even) but

> we did want her vaccinated. Will do the same for

> our second when the time comes. Not cheap but

> another option out there should people wish to

> take it.

The overwhelming majority of those who opposed the MMR jab are plan anti-vaxxers so no vaccination protocol would have been acceptable to them.

hellosailor, I am a bit perplexed though. What prompted you to chose separate shots instead of the combined MMR?

There is an inherent risk to any shot. So the idea is to provide the most benefits to the individual, society at large, all at the minimum risk to the individual. That would include chances of things going wrong (such as seizures), cost (less visits to practice), missed shots, etc.

Not that long ago there was a proposal to merge MMR with Varicella but that was dropped because the risks of things going wrong with MMRV were considered unaceptable compared to MMR.

[Yuuna]

I actually was thinking of another link I had that I didn't post when I wrote about the doctor. The supplements are to help improve people's poor diets along with eating better... Anyway, his articles are sound and well referenced.

It's interesting that no one challenged the figures on vaccinated people still getting illnesses they were vaccinated for... The only decision that affects the wider group is made by the parents of vaccinated children; it's their children likely to pass on the diseases to non vaccinated children. I am indeed worried by this. There is a great under reportage of those adversely affected by vaccinations so the true number is not known. It is not selfish to not want your child injected with toxins not proven to strengthen their immunity. Anyone can say 'they shouldn't have children'. The truth will be plain to see for all one day.

My niece has had vaccinations and had adverse reactions to them before. Vaccinations are essentially drugs; of which she has a history of bad reactions to. Her doctors refused to record this until we threatened to complain. Our belief is that she ought never to have been given the 'swine' flu vaccination. People's faith in vaccinations is largely based on lies and cover ups they are fed and duped into believing. How many people actually read the statistics of illness among vaccinated populations? It's higher than it should be if what we've been told is supposed to be true. The diseases around now are the man made mutated versions, not the old versions that were virtually eradicated before vaccinations were so widespread.

Yes, people die in Africa, not just 'sub Saharan' Africa, of diseases, have you been there? Have you seen the conditions people live in? So you think vaccinations will be their saviour? How about plentiful food and clean water? How about freedon from war, torture and rape? Who are we to trivialise their lives and their suffering? People die of starvation. Shall we vaccinate them too? It's easy for us to say how bad it is in Africa yet not look at the situation in our own country. Are we the healthiest country in Europe? No more obesity, heart disease or cancer, is that right? I believe penicillin was a true success story, until we used and abused antibiotics and created 'superbugs' go figure! Yay science!!

Roots, obviously your intention isn't to convince me of vaccinations being good. The government sly threats are no 'conspiracy theories' they have a nice history of underhand behaviour. Protip: insulting and offending people won't get them to respect you or anything you say. Also, I'm not a Christian. I follow the Ryukyu traditional religion (somewhat similar to Shinto). I'm not sure we have doctrine that reads the Earth is 6000 years old or about these 'evolutionary theories' you write of, awkward... (Your trolling is half amusing, sometimes...) Anyway, you're just writing bland statements that you'd not say in person unless you knew how to run, fast.

I will acknowledge that this thread has turned more into a discussion about vaccinations in general as opposed to a MMR and autism link thread. I think that there is enough compelling evidence, worldwide that there is a link, however big or small, however MMR is not the only dangerous vaccination. Wakefield originally stated that the triple vaccination was dangerous and children should be given them singularly. The government's response? About six months later, following public demand for the single vaccines, they withdrew it! I won't post a link; do the research yourself. Find out for yourself how unscrupulous, deceitful and immoral the government is. Learn how they shipped a dangerous vaccination over to Brazil, after it had been recalled in the UK over safety concerns, and children got sick! Let's not forget that GlaxoSmithKline were given indemnity by the UK government so charges may not be brought against them... Oh yes, I have perfect trust in vaccinations the government 'recommends' for my children.

The British government: it's profits before people.

I am confident that I am not adversely affecting children around me by not having my children vaccinated. I have read enough, offline (as is in library books, reports obtained under freedom of information acts etc.) as well as online (both from laypeople and medical professionals) and talked to a whole host of individuals. I know, full well, without a shadow of a doubt, I made the right, ethical and moral choice. I would never knowingly limit my children's immune systems and neither would the rest of you; if you only knew.

[StraferJack]

it's been a while since I read a genuinely bonkers post -

[hellosailor]

>

>

> Not that long ago there was a proposal to merge

> MMR with Varicella but that was dropped because

> the risks of things going wrong with MMRV were

> considered unaceptable compared to MMR.

Where did you find that information root? Can you please provide a link? Why was the risk deemed greater out of interest?

[hellosailor]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> that is an option but why would you take it?

>

> What is it about the MMR jab that would make you

> consider spending hard cash?

Forgot to answer your question SJ, My daughter had a serious reaction to one of the infant jabs and it was very scary, it was deemed more likely to have happened because it had been a mutlti jab, so we didn't want to take the chance of the same thing happening again. hence went for separate jabs next time.

[StraferJack]

ouch - sorry to hear that

I have found that seeing my little ones suffer any illness far more upsetting than I would have ever thought possible - so i do understand parental caution esp if you have already tried something which didn't work out

[Yuuna]

Easy to label it 'bonkers' than to consider its content. That's how people are these days or I suppose how they've always been; ridiculing what they cannot or willnot understand. Just for the record; I am very openminded. My disagreeing with your opinion does not render me closedminded. Only one with a narrow mind would think that. I had doubts previously and I considered both sides, then I made my decision. Of course, I don't have to justify anything to any of you. Anyway, for a so called bonkers post it had better punctuation than your one liner.

[root]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> StraferJack Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > that is an option but why would you take it?

> >

> > What is it about the MMR jab that would make

> you

> > consider spending hard cash?

>

> Forgot to answer your question SJ, My daughter had

> a serious reaction to one of the infant jabs and

> it was very scary, it was deemed more likely to

> have happened because it had been a mutlti jab, so

> we didn't want to take the chance of the same

> thing happening again. hence went for separate

> jabs next time.

Seems I was actually wrong and there's only a small elevated risk:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/mmrv/studyfeature.html

Sorry to hear about your daughter. Who advised you on seeking separate jabs and do you recall the explanation given?

[StraferJack]

I have considered

I do understand (despite your accusation)

And look! Pedantic nit-pickery to boot!

all this from the person who wrote: "Protip: insulting and offending people won't get them to respect you or anything you say. "

[hellosailor]

>

>

> Sorry to hear about your daughter. Who advised

> you on seeking separate jabs and do you recall the

> explanation given?

The GP we saw as a follow up advised us to do separate jabs for MMR, I don't remember her exact explanation but it was to do with the chances of bad reactions being greater with multi jabs than single jabs apparently. Her son had also been hospitalised after the MMR so she knew first hand how scary a bad reaction could be.

The nurse at the surgery who I spoke to afterwards said she didn't feel right about advising me what to do about vaccinations in the future as she didn't have either of her children vaccinated due to the risks?not very reassuring from the very person administering the jabs..

[david_carnell]

Yunna wrote:

"Vaccinations are essentially drugs..."

What does this even mean?

"...of which she has a history of bad reactions to..."

Your niece reacts badly to all drugs? All medicines? Only heroin and crack?

"Yes, people die in Africa, not just 'sub Saharan' Africa, of diseases, have you been there? Have you seen the conditions people live in? So you think vaccinations will be their saviour? How about plentiful food and clean water? How about freedon from war, torture and rape?"

Errr....so you think if you give people clean water and stop war they won't get measles??? Riiiight. And not only that, but immunisation has the potential to boost a country's growth. Immunisation makes economic sense. Many analyses weighing the costs versus the benefits of vaccination have shown positive economic impact. What's more, the infrastructure, management and acceptability of immunisation programmes offer a platform to deliver other integrated health and nutrition interventions.

"Who are we to trivialise their lives and their suffering? People die of starvation. Shall we vaccinate them too?"

Are you actually this dim or just pretending for effect. If anyone is trivialising the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children, it's you with your non-sequiturs and straw men.

"It's easy for us to say how bad it is in Africa yet not look at the situation in our own country. Are we the healthiest country in Europe? No more obesity, heart disease or cancer, is that right? I believe penicillin was a true success story, until we used and abused antibiotics and created 'superbugs' go figure! Yay science!!"

I'm not even sure which of your many idiotic points I want to fisk here. I think I'll just leave it in bold for others to read.

[root]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

> > Sorry to hear about your daughter. Who advised

> > you on seeking separate jabs and do you recall

> the

> > explanation given?

>

> The GP we saw as a follow up advised us to do

> separate jabs for MMR, I don't remember her exact

> explanation but it was to do with the chances of

> bad reactions being greater with multi jabs than

> single jabs apparently. Her son had also been

> hospitalised after the MMR so she knew first hand

> how scary a bad reaction could be.

That is weird. It's the first time I've heard of such a recommencation. I would have imagined that if there had been a specific ingredient to which your daughter may have reacted badly that the GP would have checked thoroughly against the other shots too. I tried to see what the NHS had to say but it seems very close to nothing. The following links makes some good reading:

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/x554800/should-i-give-my-baby-the-mmr-or-have-the-vaccinations-done-separately

(Incidentally I am an computer engineer with a background and interest in science not a clinician)

> The nurse at the surgery who I spoke to afterwards

> said she didn't feel right about advising me what

> to do about vaccinations in the future as she

> didn't have either of her children vaccinated due

> to the risks?not very reassuring from the very

> person administering the jabs..

That is completely messed up. Was this on the NHS?

My experience with the NHS has been a postcode lottery. When I lived in Newham I had a very bad breakdown in health and all the GP surgery did was screw me over until they eventually struck me off their register when I threatened to sue them after a succession of very big mess ups that could have had very dire consequences (for me). They messed up test results giving me all clear when in fact they were not, and even left front desk idiots to phone me to tell me that other results were all clear and that I do not need to come to the practice (because an X-ray showed no broken bones which is pretty much to be expected when all the damage is in soft tissue).

Then I moved to Tower Hamlets and registered with a new GP. What a difference!! Over a period of two years and approximately an average of 10 GP/Hospital/Physio/etc a month I had my health back under control.

[root]

Yuuna Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I will acknowledge that this thread has turned

> more into a discussion about vaccinations in

> general as opposed to a MMR and autism link

> thread. I think that there is enough compelling

> evidence, worldwide that there is a link, however

> big or small, ....

No Yuuna, that is what you're not getting. There is *no* link!!

[hellosailor]

root Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hellosailor Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > >

> > >

> > > Sorry to hear about your daughter. Who

> advised

> > > you on seeking separate jabs and do you

> recall

> > the

> > > explanation given?

> >

> > The GP we saw as a follow up advised us to do

> > separate jabs for MMR, I don't remember her

> exact

> > explanation but it was to do with the chances

> of

> > bad reactions being greater with multi jabs

> than

> > single jabs apparently. Her son had also been

> > hospitalised after the MMR so she knew first

> hand

> > how scary a bad reaction could be.

>

> That is weird. It's the first time I've heard of

> such a recommencation. I would have imagined that

> if there had been a specific ingredient to which

> your daughter may have reacted badly that the GP

> would have checked thoroughly against the other

> shots too. I tried to see what the NHS had to say

> but it seems very close to nothing. The following

> links makes some good reading:

No, they did not suggest it was likely that it was a particular ingredient. Yes, my NHS GP did recommend we do separate jabs in the future if we could afford it, the reason being a multi jab was apparently more likely to cause an adverse reaction. The other option we were offered was to go ahead with the MMR and have it administered in hospital, so my daughter could spend the day on a ward in hospital to monitor her, so they could treat her immediately if the same thing happened again. Out of interest would you have done this?

> http://www.babycentre.co.uk/x554800/should-i-give-

> my-baby-the-mmr-or-have-the-vaccinations-done-sepa

> rately

>

> (Incidentally I am an computer engineer with a

> background and interest in science not a

> clinician)

>

> I didn't for one moment think you were a clinician.

> > The nurse at the surgery who I spoke to

> afterwards

> > said she didn't feel right about advising me

> what

> > to do about vaccinations in the future as she

> > didn't have either of her children vaccinated

> due

> > to the risks?not very reassuring from the very

> > person administering the jabs..

>

> That is completely messed up. Was this on the

> NHS?

Is it messed up? Should she have lied to me then? She gave me her honest opinion, presumably based on being a nurse at a GP practise who spent her days vaccinating children, an opinion, with respect, that is of more interest to me than that of a computer engineer. Yes she was NHS.

>

> My experience with the NHS has been a postcode

> lottery. When I lived in Newham I had a very bad

> breakdown in health and all the GP surgery did was

> screw me over until they eventually struck me off

> their register when I threatened to sue them after

> a succession of very big mess ups that could have

> had very dire consequences (for me). They messed

> up test results giving me all clear when in fact

> they were not, and even left front desk idiots to

> phone me to tell me that other results were all

> clear and that I do not need to come to the

> practice (because an X-ray showed no broken bones

> which is pretty much to be expected when all the

> damage is in soft tissue).

>

> Then I moved to Tower Hamlets and registered with

> a new GP. What a difference!! Over a period of

> two years and approximately an average of 10

> GP/Hospital/Physio/etc a month I had my health

> back under control.

[root]

hellosailor Wrote:

> following

> > links makes some good reading:

>

> No, they did not suggest it was likely that it was

> a particular ingredient. Yes, my NHS GP did

> recommend we do separate jabs in the future if we

> could afford it, the reason being a multi jab was

> apparently more likely to cause an adverse

> reaction. The other option we were offered was to

> go ahead with the MMR and have it administered in

> hospital, so my daughter could spend the day on a

> ward in hospital to monitor her, so they could

> treat her immediately if the same thing happened

> again. Out of interest would you have done this?

>

> >

That is double messed up.

The first thing I do whenever a GP recommends anything is check is go to the NHS website and read up on what the GP said. If there is anything that raises any alarm bells I would go back to the GP and ask him to justify his advice. What was it based on? Can he cite any research studies? Is it from personal experience? Research studies usually list any associations or interests. What were this GP's? Was he acting impartially and objectively?

In this case the NHS website clearly states that on the NHS individual vaccines are not available and cites some reasons.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/mmr-vaccine.aspx

If put in your position multiple alarm bells would have gone off. For starters the decision put in your hands is very emotionally charged. He basically told you to either pay money or leave your daughter in the hospital in case she reacts badly. No parent would bear leave his daughter in hospital in case she has a bad reaction when the problem can be made to go away by throwing some money at it.

I really suggest going back to this GP and ask him to substantiate his advice. If he just made it up to try to swindle you out of some money he could have potentially exposed your daughter to even higher risks!!!

> >

> > That is completely messed up. Was this on the

> > NHS?

>

> Is it messed up? Should she have lied to me then?

> She gave me her honest opinion, presumably based

> on being a nurse at a GP practise who spent her

> days vaccinating children, an opinion, with

> respect, that is of more interest to me than that

> of a computer engineer. Yes she was NHS.

And that's why it is triple messed up. She was in a position of expert authority and because of that position you gave more weight to that of a computer engineer. What does this nurse know that over-rides the guidelines of the medical body and the established gold practices? Has her judgement been clouded by some incident that is not representative? Did she add 1 and 1 together and came up with 10? That is one of the reasons research studies are carried out and the numbers crunched. To get rid of the gut feelings and links and causality established.

Frankly? You should have filed a complaint and she should be struck off.

[hellosailor]

Root, I'm beginning to think you might be a troll...

Firstly I fail to see how my GP was trying to swindle me out of money? In fact it's my understanding that GPs get paid per jab so she was in fact 'swindling' herself out of money by recommending we have separate jabs (and therefore go privately).

Secondly, I'm confused, you think a nurse should be struck off for a.) not vaccinating her children or b.) admitting to me that she has not rather than lying.

You're quite the charmer.

[TE44]

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/syrian-refugees-create-huge-new-market-for-out-dated-live-polio-vaccine-over-20-million-children-to-be-vaccinated/

d carnell, I'm sure people in third world countries can make up there own minds about the effects of vaccines. These countries have been used in studies for years, without safety being put first.

India to get polio free status amid rise in acute flaccid paralysis

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/XS6vPor5jFX3vKkaE7Ri6H/India-to-get-poliofree-status-amid-rise-in-acute-flaccid-pa.html

This link explains non polio acute flaccid paralysis.

[TE44]

http://m.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/polio-free-does-not-mean-paralysis-free/article4266043.ece/?maneref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fpolio-vaccine-debate-hits-the-high-court%2F

oops heres the link explaining non polio acute flaccid paralysis.

[root]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Root, I'm beginning to think you might be a

> troll...

Thanks. For suggesting that you question your GP when he suggests something that raises alarm bells?

Not a troll ... just heavily Internet connected and naturally gifted at switching very quickly between issues without losing focus on main task, which is not this thread :-)

>

> Firstly I fail to see how my GP was trying to

> swindle me out of money? In fact it's my

> understanding that GPs get paid per jab so she was

> in fact 'swindling' herself out of money by

> recommending we have separate jabs (and therefore

> go privately).

Did you take those individual jabs at the GP surgery?

>

> Secondly, I'm confused, you think a nurse should

> be struck off for a.) not vaccinating her children

> or b.) admitting to me that she has not rather

> than lying.

b) for using her position to influence your decisions

>

> You're quite the charmer.

you're welcome

[hellosailor]

Okay, perhaps you're not quite as naturally gifted at switching very quickly between issues without losing focus as you think...

My surgery and the GPs working out of it are NHS.

She recommended we have separate jabs, i.e. as I said, go private if we could afford it. You cannot have separate jabs on NHS.

So no, we didn't have the jabs at our surgery.

Secondly, the advice, from our very experienced GP, seemed wholly sensible after what had happened previously , so no, 'alarm bells' didn't ring.

Anyhoo..off to bed.

[Yuuna]

I did think root was trolling before, hence my 'protip'. If they won't be serious (by being rude), why should I think they want to be taken seriously? Remember, you wouldn't say these things to me in person as it's far easier to do it online. Apparently people dob't know what MRSA stands for or why it isn't easy to treat and they also don't believe that there are illnesses resistant to antibiotics... You were trivialising the many, many, problems in Africa as if only vaccinations could or would help; they won't. I have not trivialised anything. I have given true examples of suffering; war, starvation and rape. Disease is not their only problem and your arguments and it seems you, do not want to acknowledge that. I think it is best we stick with problems we can truly relate to here, not in a place we can only imagine what it is like. That was CLEARLY my point you deliberately sidestepped. Calling my posts idiotic won't change that. Insult to your heart's content, it only further invalidates your points. I know how to make a point and not be deliberately rude. One can disagree with another and still be civil. Try it some time. I will also add that David, it is nice of you to highlight the chosen quotes you used yet you only chose to respond the points that suited your agenda, clearly. I could highlight your insults and clear confirmation bias but what's the point? You didn't enter this discussion to truly partake in a constructive manner. Encourage others to mock me if you wish, you'll find I'm not easily intimidated by that behaviour. I think people should remember to think before they write. I am interested to know others' thoughts on the subject but I see no reason why some choose to contribute to just be insulting. You're obviously not winning anyone...

Anyway, I was going to mention that in India apparently polio is on the rise after vaccinations were introduced...

Regardless, I'm not here to convince people to not vaccinate their children, I just wanted people to try and see the other arguments and be open to data not widely available in media due to it being unfavourable to vaccinate companies etc. It's still surprising how much faith people seem to have in organisations that have been so deceitful and unscrupulous in the past. Perhaps I am more suspicious, but why shouldn't I be? Would you trust a government that knowingly sends vaccinations they won't use on their children abroad to use on 'foreign' children? That makes me angry and sad for the families who have suffered. I have read from many doctors that they think vaccination injuries are a necessary 'sacrifice' for the 'greater good'. Very few seem to think we owe those children anything for being unwilling 'sacrifices'. (I believe one sacrifices oneself so a child is not a willing participant). Most it seems, think otherwise, which is why vaccination victims have discredited, shunned and purposely had their voices silenced...is that right? Sapre a thought for these people, or do you think there are no vaccination victims (those that have adverse reactions)? Some do. Some people even deny that there are even people who

I think that Saffron posted a link to an article that has been circulating around the Internet and I came across one woman's take on it. There have been claims that the post Saffron provided a link to is a hoax written by a CDC employee to use as 'pro vaccine' propaganda and apparently doctors are handing it out to patients as a kind of justification for vaccinations, like it's proof. Obviously, as Saffron pointed out, personal accounts are just that; personal accounts. Don't simply be swayed by them alone, regardless of your views on vaccinations. http://www.modernalternativemama.com/blog/2014/01/10/growing-up-unvaccinated-scary-potential-or-healthy-reality/#.UubUe1NFBPG

Please bear in mind that I am not posting it as an authoritative view. It is simply one woman's take on the article. She is trying to shed light on it. She raises some interesting points, I think. I have copied the text and posted it also. I also appeal to people to stop assuming people who don't vaccinate their children are therefore 'crazy' or 'selfish' we are not. That is offensive to say and you know it. I am annoyed by it because it shows that the propaganda has won many people over. A differing opinion does not render someone idiotic, as others would have you believe.

"There is a pro- vaccination article circulating the internet right now. You may have seen it ? most people have. It was originally published at ?Voices for Vaccines,? and later republished on Slate, Jezebel, and several smaller blogs. The blogosphere is abuzz with this story. It?s called ?Growing Up Unvaccinated.? There are two general thoughts about it right now:

Good, finally. Maybe all those silly anti-vax people will finally listen and get their kids vaccinated.

and

This is pure propaganda nonsense. Who is she kidding? You can drive a Mac Truck through the holes in this story.

I can?t prove one way or another if the story was real. Maybe it was. Or maybe it is only propaganda. Here is the most important thing to remember, though: this is one woman?s story and opinion. It is not science. It is not data. It is not a reason to make a decision on this very important issue. Anecdotes from either side are just that: anecdotes. Ignore them.

Why All The Fuss?

For some reason, many people who strongly believe in vaccines are very fond of saying ?The plural of anecdote is not data,? and they immediately dismiss any story about vaccine reactions or any anecdote that may be ?anti-vax? no matter how many there are. Yet, they?re spreading this story as far and wide as possible. They?re championing it. What a great story! What a great way to get peoples? attention!

It should be understood that everyone, regardless of their opinion on a topic, will naturally side with information that confirms what they believe, and will be naturally critical of information that goes against what they believe. It is called confirmation bias. That is exactly what is happening here. The people sharing the story don?t seem to understand that they are engaging in this behavior; if they do, they don?t care.

Since I?m not a fan of emotional manipulation and attempts to force people into making certain medical decisions, I?m going to break the article down and explain why so many are angry about it. I?ll point out all the sections that have raised questions or concerns and explain why they have. Then I?ll leave it to you to decide whether you believe this story or not, as well as ? as always ? what decision on vaccines is right for your family.

I don?t abide by bullying?and that?s what this was (or at least, that?s how it?s being used).

Breaking Down the Story

My goal is to share several inconsistencies as well as simply incorrect or abusive statements.

I was brought up on an incredibly healthy diet: no sugar til I was one, breastfed for over a year, organic homegrown vegetables, raw milk, no MSG, no additives, no aspartame.

Aspartame wasn?t approved in the UK until 1982, and wasn?t used in many popular products until the late 80s. The author, according to her bio, was born in 1976. It wouldn?t have been an issue for the author, very likely, since it wasn?t really in common use until she was older.

?I would?ve killed for white, shop-bought bread in my lunch box once in a while and biscuits instead of fruit like all the other kids.

This statement sets up resentment towards the parents ? implying that parents who offer their kids a healthy diet are doing them a disservice, that their children will rebel, and dismissing the impact that a healthy diet has on a person?s overall health.

As healthy as my lifestyle seemed, I contracted measles, mumps, rubella, a type of viral meningitis, scarlatina, whooping cough, yearly tonsillitis, and chickenpox, some of which are vaccine preventable. In my twenties I got precancerous HPV?

There were no vaccines for most of these illnesses. Only measles, mumps, rubella, and whooping cough. Viral meningitis, scarlatina, tonsillitis, chicken pox, and HPV did not have vaccines at this time. Mixing these illnesses all together in a long list makes it look scarier than it really is. Vaccines, even if they work as intended, do not prevent against other illnesses (like tonsillitis). Some parents believe that they do, but this is simply false. HPV is a sexually-transmitted disease that can be prevented by abstinence, safe sex practices, and regular pap smears.

?mummy might have cancer before it was safely removed.

I can?t help but note that the author overcame all the illnesses she faced. She did not have any complications, lasting damage, and obviously did not die. She doesn?t even mention any hospitalizations (until age 21, which was not for a vaccine-preventable illness) ? so they couldn?t have even been that bad.

So having the ?natural immunity sterilised out of us? just doesn?t cut it for me. How could I, with my idyllic childhood and my amazing health food, get so freaking ill all the time?

This statement implies that the steps her mother took ? alternative health and good food ? were (are) useless to prevent disease, and that vaccines are the only (best) solution. It casts doubt on relying on a healthy lifestyle. (Although, again ? she may have gotten sick ? but she came through just fine! Could that have been because of her lifestyle?)

My two vaccinated children, on the other hand, have rarely been ill, have had antibiotics maybe twice in their lives, if that (not like me who got so many illnesses which needed treatment with antibiotics that I developed a resistance to them, which led me to be hospitalized with penicillin-resistant quinsy at 21?you know that old fashioned disease that killed Queen Elizabeth I and which was almost wiped out through use of antibiotics.

Ah, there it is. Vaccines are the solution. They prevent (all) illness. But, wait a minute ? she developed resistance to antibiotics by the age of 21? Most ?super crunchy? parents do not get antibiotics very often, if at all. They use natural remedies to treat. So why did she have antibiotics all that often? Either her parents weren?t really crunchy, or they are trying to say that when natural remedies ?inevitably? fail, people fall back to using antibiotics (apparently frequently). Casting more doubt on using natural remedies.

As for quinsy, it occurs when you don?t treat strep throat (but wait ? didn?t she have antibiotics a lot? wasn?t it treated?), it did not kill the queen, who was 70 years old (in the 1600s, when this age was extremely old). It?s also extremely uncommon because strep throat is usually treated early on. These are simply a bunch of false statements to make antibiotics look like major champions and natural remedies look useless.

I struggle to understand why I know far more people who have experienced complications from preventable childhood illnesses than I have EVER met with complications from vaccines. I have friends who became deaf from measles. I have a partially sighted friend who contracted rubella in the womb. My ex got pneumonia from chickenpox. A friend?s brother died from meningitis.

The most likely explanation for the first statement ? that she hasn?t met anyone with complications from vaccines ? is that it isn?t something people talk about. Plus, vaccines weren?t that commonly used until the late 80s in the UK, so cases of these illnesses were more common and vaccine reactions, obviously less common. It certainly isn?t something the media talks about. But it?s everywhere. As for the other illnesses, these complications are, in fact, rare. Knowing a few people who did have complications doesn?t mean that they are actually that common.

?anecdotes are the anti-vaccine supporter?s way.

100% incorrect and insulting. There is a wide body of scientific evidence to support the notion that vaccines may not be as safe as believed, and that there may even be benefits to catching some of these diseases. Anyone who says this clearly hasn?t done a thorough search into the anti-vaccine science and is attempting to discredit the entire notion. There are even doctors and researchers in prominent positions who have spoken out and asked for more research into vaccine safety, but the have been ignored. (Bernadette Healy, for one.)

I was studying homeopathy, herbalism and aromatherapy; I believed in angels, witchcraft, clairvoyants, crop circles, aliens at Nazca, giant ginger mariners spreading their knowledge to the Aztecs, the Incas and the Egyptians and that I was somehow personally blessed by the Holy Spirit with healing abilities. I was having my aura read at a hefty price and filtering the fluoride out of my water. I was choosing to have past life regressions instead of taking anti-depressants. I was taking my daily advice from tarot cards. I grew all my own veg and made my own herbal remedies. I was so freaking crunchy that I literally crumbled. It was only when I took control of those paranoid thoughts and fears about the world around me and became an objective critical thinker that I got well. It was when I stopped taking sugar pills for everything and started seeing medical professionals that I began to thrive physically and mentally.

This entire paragraph is nonsense. It?s mixing ?normal? things ? like being cautious about fluoride in water (which, by the way, the vast majority of the UK doesn?t even have) ? with ?out there? things like tarot cards and clairvoyants. It?s subtly suggesting that anyone who believes in anything natural is basically crazy and believes in magic, not solid, science-based natural options. It also suggests that herbal and natural remedies are ?sugar pills? and that this sort of natural life is driven by paranoid, irrational fears.

Where to even start? I can?t. It?s simply nonsense. Perhaps she had these issues (some have said she?s been diagnosed with bipolar), but this is not how most people who choose a natural lifestyle think.

If you think your child?s immune system is strong enough to fight off vaccine-preventable diseases, then it?s strong enough to fight off the tiny amounts of dead or weakened pathogens present in any of the vaccines.

This is a red herring. Nobody who chooses not to get vaccines does so because they think their child can?t handle the antigens. They are concerned about the other ingredients in vaccines ? a fact that almost all pro-vax people intentionally ignore. Injecting aluminum (injecting, not consuming orally, which is very different) into a tiny body is very concerning. The actual antigens are not.

Don?t teach your child to be self serving and scared of the world in which it lives and the people around him/her. And teach them to LOVE people with ASD or any other disability for that matter, not to label them as damaged.

This is calling all parents who don?t vaccinate selfish. And saying that by saying that children with ASD need to ?recover? from vaccine damage (which many mothers do believe), is labeling them negatively. I don?t have a vaccine-injured child, but I can only imagine how heartbreaking it is to read these words if you do have one.

?knowingly exposing your child to childhood illnesses is cruel; even without complications these diseases aren?t exactly pleasant.

No, they?re not. But neither are potential vaccine complications. No parent wants to see their child suffer, but they have to weigh the risks and benefits of any choice so that they can do what is right for them. Parents who choose not to vaccinate don?t do it so that they can get their kids sick. And if their kids do get sick (no matter what they have), they don?t leave them to suffer, they offer comfort measures! This is?implying parents are heartless and don?t really love their children if they don?t vaccinate, which is ridiculous.

Those of you who have avoided childhood illnesses without vaccines are lucky. You couldn?t do it without us pro-vaxxers. Once the vaccination rates begin dropping, the less herd immunity will be able to protect your children. The more people you convert to your anti-vax stance, the quicker that luck will run out.

Another appeal to herd immunity, and a subtle threat to vaccinate ?or else.? Most people who don?t vaccinate don?t believe in herd immunity and are not afraid of these illnesses.

On a personal note, my kids have had rubella, pertussis (including the baby) and likely mumps, and we have had no issues. Nothing scary. No complications. Not even a visit to the doctor. Kids can, and do, come through these illnesses with no problems.

The Bottom Line

There have been wild accusations flying around, accusing the author of actually being an employee at the CDC. I can?t find anything to confirm that.

And you know, maybe it is just one mom?s heartfelt, fervent story. Maybe she did have a terrible, illness-ridden childhood and she now believes vaccines are the answer. And that?s okay.

What isn?t okay is the way her words are being used. They?re being used to judge and shame parents. They?re being held up as an example of what will happen if you don?t vaccinate your children. They?re being regarded as some sort of universal truth. That is terrible.

One person?s story is one person?s story. Nothing more or less. It may jumpstart your desire to research an issue, but it shouldn?t push you into a decision. And anyone who would send you such an article and then tell you that you should make a decision because of it is wrong, and to be ignored. (I know some people send it out of concern, like ?hey, did you see this?? and that?s okay. It?s the people that say ?See, you were wrong, here.? that?s bad.)"

[hpsaucey]

root Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hpsaucey Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Lots of emotive language here as this topic

> always

> > generates. Yes lots of studies have debunked

> > concerns. But then again, people used to use

> > asbestos because it was thought to be safe and

> > used to put their children under UV lamps for

> its

> > 'health-giving benefits'.

> >

> > Times change, science changes and what we know

> and

> > understand changes - although people often have

> > short memories - so I don't personally think

> its

> > as black and white as many suggest and am sorry

> > the issue sometimes brings out dismissive

> > language.

> >

> > HP

>

> And after the woo, the hysteria, and the

> conspiracies come the deepities.

>

> Science doesn't change. Our understanding of

> science improves, and whereas in the Victorian age

> every man and his dog could come up with a

> concoction they call an elixir nowadays we have

> research laboratories, overseeing health services,

> and independent teams who shred other people's

> work so that (while it's not perfect) what makes

> sense gets adopted, improved on, and so forth. It

> is not perfect. There are financial iterests,

> lobbying, research bias, but it's our job to make

> it better not turn the clocks back to 1685.

>

> Incidentally the MMR vaccine has been around since

> the late 60s / early 70s, so we have quite a lot

> of data about it.

>

> And yes, harsh words are in order. Not just out

> of frustration in the face of wilful stupidity,

> but out of the wreckless endangerment of putting

> other people's health, including the lives of

> other people's children at risk. That is the

> simple bottom line. I repeat, in case you missed

> it. The unvaccinated population are not just

> increasing their risk of disease, but above all,

> they are increasing the risk of exposure to those

> whose immunity is compromised.

Re: the first para: AH - the Whig 'progress' view of things...although admittedly yes I wrote in haste you are right science doesn't change but then does our interpretation and understanding of science always change for the better? Doubt it. I'm pretty sure a dose of natural curiosity/cynicism is good whichever 'side' you're on.

And I repeat - there are some for whom medical reasons make whether or not to vaccinate a far more agonising decision, but then I'm sure that we've gone over and over all of this many times, and giving the benefit of the doubt - maybe this is what you mean by putting other people's children at risk.

[Yuuna]

I did think root was trolling before, hence my 'protip'. If they won't be serious (by being rude), why should I think they want to be taken seriously? Remember, you wouldn't say these things to me in person as it's far easier to do it online. Apparently people don't know what MRSA stands for or why it isn't easy to treat and they also don't believe that there are illnesses resistant to antibiotics... You were trivialising the many, many, problems in Africa as if only vaccinations could or would help; they won't. I have not trivialised anything. I have given true examples of suffering; war, starvation and rape. Disease is not their only problem and your arguments and it seems you, do not want to acknowledge that. I think it is best we stick with problems we can truly relate to here, not in a place we can only imagine what it is like. That was CLEARLY my point you deliberately sidestepped. Calling my posts idiotic won't change that. Insult to your heart's content, it only further invalidates your points. I know how to make a point and not be deliberately rude. One can disagree with another and still be civil. Try it some time. I will also add that David, it is nice of you to highlight the chosen quotes you used yet you only chose to respond to the points that suited your agenda, clearly. I could highlight your insults and clear confirmation bias but what's the point? You didn't enter this discussion to truly partake in a constructive manner. Encourage others to mock me if you wish, you'll find I'm not easily intimidated by that behaviour. I think people should remember to think before they write. I am interested to know others' thoughts on the subject but I see no reason why some choose to contribute to just be insulting. You're obviously not winning over anyone...

Anyway, I was going to mention that in India apparently polio is on the rise after vaccinations were introduced...

Regardless, I'm not here to convince people to not vaccinate their children, I just wanted people to try and see the other arguments and be open to data not widely available in media due to it being unfavourable to vaccine companies etc. It's still surprising how much faith people seem to have in organisations that have been so deceitful and unscrupulous in the past. Perhaps I am more suspicious, but why shouldn't I be? Would you trust a government that knowingly sends vaccinations they won't use on their own children abroad to use on 'foreign' children? That makes me angry and sad for the families who have suffered. I have read from many doctors that they think vaccination injuries are a necessary 'sacrifice' for the 'greater good'. Very few seem to think we owe those children anything for being unwilling 'sacrifices'. (I believe one sacrifices oneself so a child is not a willing participant). Most it seems, think otherwise, which is why vaccination victims have been discredited, shunned and purposely had their voices silenced...is that right? Spare a thought for these people, or do you think there are no vaccination victims (those that have adverse reactions)? Some do. Some people even deny their existence. Anyone heard of Dr. Offit, champion of mandatory vaccinations in America? The same doctor who thinks a child could have 10,000 vaccinations a day? He must be credible because he believes vaccinations to be totally safe. I read he even upped that number to 100,000. The way some of you have written, it seems like you would get along just fine. I on the other hand, believe you do not sacrifice others; only yourself, otherwise that is truly selfish.

I think that Saffron posted a link to an article that has been circulating around the Internet and I came across one woman's take on it. There have been claims that the post Saffron provided a link to is a hoax written by a CDC employee to use as 'pro vaccine' propaganda and apparently doctors are handing it out to patients as a kind of justification for vaccinations, like it's proof. Obviously, as Saffron pointed out, personal accounts are just that; personal accounts. Don't simply be swayed by them alone, regardless of your views on vaccinations. http://www.modernalternativemama.com/blog/2014/01/10/growing-up-unvaccinated-scary-potential-or-healthy-reality/#.UubUe1NFBPG

Please bear in mind that I am not posting it as an authoritative view. It is simply one woman's take on the article. She is trying to shed light on it. She raises some interesting points. I also appeal to people to stop assuming people who don't vaccinate their children are therefore 'crazy' or 'selfish' we are not. That is offensive to say and you know it. I am annoyed by it because it shows that the propaganda has won many people over. A differing opinion does not render someone idiotic, as others would have you believe.

[hpsaucey]

Yunna - sadly you are right - people seem to talk to each other on here in a way they would never dream of (hopefully) in person. Sometimes the forum can be a poisonous place to be.... Equally - sometimes it can be hard to resist being dragged in to it.

Anyway - I'm off post now, so I'll stop.