Ghosts and paranormal activity in ED & PR

[taper]

I'm no Bishop Berkeley, but i am a tea pot agnostic. So give me the evidence, and I'll believe in ghosts.

But you can't. Not one shred.

[Alan Medic]

I think the bottom line is you have to find out for yourself. I'm not saying I have but I'm not going to write off someone else's say so simply because I've not experienced what they have.

[StraferJack]

How do we feel about Santa? Are we SURE he doesn't exist

Honestly, show me evidence and I'll buy it but in the meantime there is plenty to be getting in with without made up stuff

Just because people want to believe doesn't mean it's so

And someone saying not to dismiss things "you don't understand?" Suggesting what? That some people have more understanding? Please

If someone comes up to me and tells me they have seen Jesus cross the road with 3 little green men I can't prove they are nuts. But they probably are right?

[Alan Medic]

Where has someone asked anyone else to believe anything without evidence SJ? Please quote accordingly.

[StraferJack]

Alan. Take your first question and figure out where I asked that

People are saying. "Don't dismiss what you don't know" like it's some wisdom or something

[NewWave]

I've experienced paranormal activity many times, Once when I was staying in a chateau in the middle of france, and that was full on weird stuff,such as the name Theirry appearing from nowhere on a steamed up window, etc etc,

Also in my old Flat in west london.

when you genuinely experience such things you feel a weird acceptance and it doesn't feel scary as one would imagine.

I know such things exist only because I have seen and felt them myself.

[StraferJack]

They aren't paranormal tho !!!

They are just things you personally don't have an answer to

[Jeremy]

Given that 'supernatural' specifically means an event outside of the rules of nature, saying outright that such things don't exist does not seem like an unreasonable stance. Not just because we haven't experienced such things, but because they go against what we know about the world and the universe.

If you hear funny noises, or things go missing, or writing appears on a steamed up window, or there are cold spots in a room... there are of course rational explanations to all of these, so to automatically bypass them and say that it is supernatural, that just seems odd to me.

[Sue]

Jeremy Wrote:

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>

> If you hear funny noises, or things go missing, or

> writing appears on a steamed up window, or there

> are cold spots in a room... there are of course

> rational explanations to all of these,

xxxxxxx

Does anybody have the link to the thread that KidKruger (I think) started some time ago? Can't remember when, so it may have been zapped in one of the forum clean-ups.

There were several incidents on there that I think you'd be hard put to find "rational" explanations for using our present knowledge of "science". Including some of mine.

Many things could be considered "supernatural" before they were explained. Television, telephones, man-made flight, electricity. Or, thunder, lightning, eclipses of the sun and moon, etc etc..

Edinburgh University certainly considers parapsychology a subject worthy of serious study:

http://www.koestler-parapsychology.psy.ed.ac.uk/index.html

I knew John Beloff (now sadly dead), one of the original lecturers in the unit, because he was married to Halla Beloff, who supervised my undergraduate thesis. He certainly was no fool.

[StraferJack]

Sue. You're disproving your own point

Things that could once have been considered supernatural (television etc) aren't supernatural. They are scientific. There is zero supernatural about them. So the people who might once have thought them supernatural would have been wrong

[Pugwash]

many years ago my eldest daughter worked in an off licence near the Paxton Roundabout in Gipsy Hill. she would talk about the weird happenings there, with bottles flying off the shelf, boxes being overturned, footsteps heard in the empty flat above etc. We did not take too much notice of this but whilst she was working there, our youngest daughter who was around 8 or 9 at the time was taken by a friend of her sister's to the off licence as the girls were meeting up for some family event. K came home later that night full of excitement of keys of the till flying in the air, shop bell ringing without the door opening, bottles being smashed on the floor and other things. She was not at all worried about this. Later on when eldest daughter went back to University, a friend took over her position and she experienced similar happenings. Years later retelling their experiences to a family friend who lived on the nearby Kingswood Estate, they were informed that the Off licence owner eventually closed the business as staff would not stay after they had experienced similar goings on.

I do believe that some people are very sensitive to what I can only describe as 'unexplained happenings'. When my youngest daughter was 11, we were on holiday in Norfolk and had taken K's friend of the same age with us. On the Friday night before returning home, the girls were getting ready for the last night entertainment, when K became very hysterical and crying and could not explain why she was upset. Not being a child prone to this type of behaviour we were at loss how to deal with this over a period of hours. Returning home to ED the next day, our front door was not doubled locked and we gingerly went into the house to find my Mum sitting in the garden. She had come to give us bad news that my great aunt who previously lived with us, and had moved down to The Elms, had died the night before. We discovered that she had become suddenly very ill and died within a very short time the night before and this coincided with K's hysteria. Over the years, we have got used to K's 'psychic feelings' and do not question them as they have in hindsight proved to be correct. Whilst studying psychology, K mentioned these incidents and underwent some low key experiments, which showed that she had very heightened ESP and could pick up 'vibes'.

Regarding spiritualism, David Nason used to hire the ED Community Centre for his meetings and one day, I was asked to open and close up for his session. Out of curiosity I stayed for the meeting with a guest spiritualist, and was surprised when a close deceased friend came through. I was very sceptical, but the female spiritualist did not know me or the area, she physically described my friend and the activities he was involved in. He was unusual as an artist that he specialised in working with the police and their animals, from the ED Mounted Police section to Police Commissioners. She described much of his work ( which I was familiar with) and then asked if he was known to anyone in the room. I put my hand up and gave my name. She then 'passed a message' from L relating to an event we had attended many years before.

I do believe that it is possible there is a 'spirit world' as my family has some experiences in this area. I am a sceptical person and try to rationalise why things happen, either by coincidence or from a practical angle. I certainly would not dismiss entirely strange happenings experienced by others.

[Sue]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> Sue. You're disproving your own point

>

> Things that could once have been considered

> supernatural (television etc) aren't supernatural.

> They are scientific. There is zero supernatural

> about them. So the people who might once have

> thought them supernatural would have been wrong

xxxxxx

What is "my own point" which am I disproving?

What I was attempting to say, albeit possibly very badly (blame the fact that I'm ill), was that things are only considered "supernatural" (which is a stupid word anyway) by some people when they can't be explained.

Once they are explained they are no longer considered "supernatural".

So psychic phenomena which some people presently call "supernatural" may be capable of explanation in the future and therefore will no longer be considered to be "supernatural".

I'm in no state for a philosophical/linguistic/scientific discussion, however. Am starting 2014 in a droopy sorry-for-myself heap :(

So probably none of the above makes sense either :))

[El Pibe]

"and that was full on weird stuff,such as the name Theirry appearing from nowhere on a steamed up window"

was my favourite, i often draw teddy bears for my little ones on the window when its steamed up.

THen they dissappear....wwwoooOOOooo

Then when it next steams up, the teddy bear is still there....spooooooky.

 

[TillieTrotter]

My kid do that in the car. It's very bloody annoying.

[NewWave]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> "and that was full on weird stuff,such as the name

> Theirry appearing from nowhere on a steamed up

> window"

>

> was my favourite, i often draw teddy bears for my

> little ones on the window when its steamed up.

> THen they dissappear....wwwoooOOOooo

>

> Then when it next steams up, the teddy bear is

> still there....spooooooky.

>

>

Since It was I who wrote about this I feel I should clarify that the name was written in the steam as I watched it-in other words it was as if an invisible finger was writing the name-I freaked and leapt out of the bath-and when I returned later to show someone it had gone. Here I should add that The bathroom was on the upper level with a sheer drop below the window. I probably didn't make it clear in my initial post.

Other things that occurred in the chateau included seeing human like shapes appear in rooms and corners but fuzzy and shadowy as if made out of dust or smoke, and then they'd disappear.

[shaman]

Rarely on here but by chance one of my specialist subjects is on the go. I have being working with these realms all my life, growing up with human and non human spirits of ED and Peckham etc.

Some body mentioned earlier people die all the time so why isn't the place full of ghosts, truth is it is but must people don't experience them or interact with them it require a variety of conditions for them to manifest, in our reality from ours.

There is really little reason to be afraid and not normally a problem. I have travelledt he country dealing with hauntings and usually any problems are dealt with easily.

However the vast amount of visit result in the problem of the resident misunderstanding natural phenomena. Heating,electrical faults unexpected sound travelling. Animal invasion of the home etc etc, I always approach disturbances in a practical manner.unless I perceive a issue from the start which is rare.

I have seen everything from blocked pipes disturbing people too four poster beds being lifted off the floor by an unhappy spirit , so what I am saying is that there are many things in the world we don't understand but also a lot we do, but fear and prejudice make us fearful of the unknown and the known.

[Sue]

shaman Wrote:

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> what I am saying is that there are many things in

> the world we don't understand but also a lot we

> do, but fear and prejudice make us fearful of the

> unknown and the known.

xxxxxx

Yes, well said.

Particularly prejudice, perhaps.

[StraferJack]

Not fearful of the unknown at all!

Angry with people preying on those who are maybe

Does "working in these realms" come cheap?

[shaman]

Yes there are a lot of people who pray on, bereaved or fearful people and it makes me angr, since I know personally many people who have fallen fail to these fakes.

Personally when I do this stuff for people it does come cheap unless I have to travel long distances in which case I ask expenses since I don't have a car.

Often don't charge anything or donation which varies from a ?5-?60 left upto the person

Generally I have an idea if it's real or not from talking to the person on the phone and sometimes just email instructions of what to do.

Often these simple rituals are about setting the mind at rest.

Also some types of phenomena are caused by medical conditions, these can be visual cortex phenomena which require medical help or night paralysis which can be helped by vitamin supplementation.

I am a very practical and logical person it's just sometime I work in areas when the logic is non western. People in White European culture believe. That their understanding of the world is right, however there are many diverse perceptions of reality amount many culture where interaction with non physical reality is everyday occurrence and in fact the norm.

[Chick]

This whole thread is barking. Where is WOOF when we need him?

[taper]

It is becoming the dinner party conversation from Storm

[Sue]

Chick Wrote:

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> This whole thread is barking.

xxxxxx

Charming as always.

Closed-minded as always.

Prejudiced as always.

:(

ETA: Guess you had to have another dig as nobody bothered to comment on your station "joke" on the first page?

[taper]

Good if long article on closed-mindedness and scepticism, including briefly on ghosts.

http://skeptoid.com/mobile/4134

"So don't focus on buzzword labels like "closed minded" or "true believer". You can be both of those things and still be able to properly analyze evidence and draw a supported conclusion. You can also be guilty of neither fault, and yet be unable to distinguish a well-supported conclusion from mountains of poor evidence. Focus on the method behind the conclusion. Focus on the quality of evidence that supports the conclusion. The ad-hominem attack of "He's closed minded" says nothing at all about the quality of evidence."

Quite.

[Sue]

taper Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Good if long article on closed-mindedness and

> scepticism, including briefly on ghosts.

>

> http://skeptoid.com/mobile/4134

>

> "So don't focus on buzzword labels like "closed

> minded" or "true believer". You can be both of

> those things and still be able to properly analyze

> evidence and draw a supported conclusion. "

>

xxxxx

So - have you "properly analysed evidence" and "drawn a supported conclusion" ??

[taper]

I have. I don't think you have though.