Ghosts and paranormal activity in ED & PR

[fabfor]

binary_star Wrote:

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> fabfor Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Re. "clear evidence for telepathy", after the

> dialogues I've had with forum members, I take that

> back.

> > I would now say "some evidence for telepathy".

>

> Ok, fair enough - which of Sheldrake's studies (or

> any others for that matter) do you think

> demonstrate "some evidence for

> telepathy" ?

>

> I'm only asking because the Sheldrake studies you

> linked to could be ripped apart by schoolchildren

> - literally 15/16yr olds studying GCSE psychology

> would take issue with his methodology.

>

> As said earlier, he seems to have no idea how to

> actually test for telepathy (or presumably any

> other parapsychological phenomena). It's

> impossible to tell if he is just observing known

> psychological effects (such as the effects of

> demand characteristics/participant bias) because

> his approach is so flawed.

>

> He should probably take some time to properly

> eliminate psychological effects before attributing

> his results as parapsychological 'evidence' for

> telepathy.

What can I say, other than I note your opinion?

[fabfor]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Having recently been visited by a local psychic

> due to some unexplained activity in my home, I

> wondered of anyone else had seen or heard of any

> local ghostly activities? I found a few articles

> online regarding tales of spiritual activity, and

> this one in particular caught my eye regarding the

> old Kings Arms pub which was destroyed during the

> blitz.

>

> http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/england/greater

> -london/hauntings/the-kings-arms-peckham-rye.html

>

> Louisa.

Firstly, I'd like to thank you, Louisa, for starting this lively! thread. It's actually helped me to resolve a dilemma I've been living with for more than 18 years.

Your invitation was for tales of the paranormal - how many of those have we had?

The scarcity is not surprising when anyone who dares to give any credibility to the paranormal here is almost guaranteed to be attacked with surprising religious fervour.

The thread has effectively become an intellectual battleground rather than a place for people to sympathetically relate what they've heard or experienced.

I'm as guilty as anyone for hijacking the thread even though I'd really love to hear others' experiences. Sorry.

I said earlier that I'd never seen a ghost but that's not strictly true. Aged about 9 or 10, I was visited by the ghost of a recently deceased member of a steel Orchestra that used to rehearse next to where I lived. Lovely memory- the orchestral goings on, not the ghost!

The bedtime visit was really scary but I long ago put it down to the over-active imagination of a child.

I've had a handful of paranormal experiences in adulthood but no ghosts.

[KidKruger]

There's already been a thread on actual experiences, the tone this thread took may have inhibited further sharing of experiences. If I have time I'll find the previous thread if your after actual stories.

[binary_star]

fabfor Wrote:

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> I would now say "some evidence for telepathy".

binary_star Wrote:

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> Ok, fair enough - which of Sheldrake's studies (or any others for that matter) do you think demonstrate "some evidence for telepathy"

fabfor Wrote:

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> What can I say, other than I note your opinion?

I don't know how else to phrase it, I thought it was a pretty direct question.

Either you think there is evidence for telepathy or not. If your conclusion is now that there isn't then ok, none (as yet) exists. If you think you have found evidence (even "some") then where is it? It's a genuine question, I had a look at the first two studies, neither of which were evidence by any stretch of the imagination (and by his own admission) but maybe you can pinpoint some other research?

[binary_star]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> There's already been a thread on actual

> experiences, the tone this thread took may have

> inhibited further sharing of experiences. If I

> have time I'll find the previous thread if your

> after actual stories.

If I have contributed to the 'tone' inhibiting further sharing, that it wasn't my intention. I do however think its important to remember the distinction between recalled experiences (anecdotal) and scientific evidence. That's not to say that scientific evidence won't be found, but I hope we can agree we're not there yet.

[Burbage]

fabfor Wrote:

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> And thanks for the truly fascinating article in

> Nature. I'm time-impoverished at the moment but

> can hardly wait to study it properly. For the

> moment, it looks like exactly the kind of research

> that could be used to support Dr. Sheldrake's

> Morphic Resonance proposal - or is it unreasonable

> to suggest this??

Fairly unreasonable. The evidence suggests a learned behavioural trait can be inherited through material in the gametes (they gave the mice to foster parents who weren't frightened of the same things). We know learned behaviour is not passed along through the genetic code as such, but there is a possible mechanism in the epigenetic (i.e. the mechanisms that regulate which genes are expressed or suppressed), and there's evidence of unexpected epigenetic changes in the offspring. We're not clear on how that happens, or how those changes are related to the behaviour. Or whether the initial experiment was dodgy. But the clues we have now suggest the answer is more likely to be found by repeating versions of the experiment, and looking for epigenetic clues, than by trying to look at fields we can't detect and which may not exist at all.

> "If I were a proper scientist, I'd note that idea

> down, design an experiment to test it and publish

> my results if I got any."

> Come on, be fair! It's also legitimate to collate

> others' research to support a new theory

> (actually, the idea behind Morphic Resonance

> predates Sheldrake).

It is perfectly legitimate to look for evidence to support a new theory, but you have to have a theory first. At the moment Sheldrake's got a hunch about some hypothetical, poorly-described and undetectable fields with a non-existent origin or mechanism and suggests that they might explain everything we can't explain, from deja-vu to who shot Kennedy. But so could aliens. So could the spirits that live in things. So could the blasted Easter Bunny. It's unfounded, copper-bottomed, rubber-stamped, unadulterated, utter, gibbering, woo.

> Anyhow, I like old Rupert and admire his

> intellectual honesty and courage but we'll have to

> disagree on that, eh?

That's nice. And as it would be very churlish of me to point out that's the one thing we don't disagree on, I won't.

[El Pibe]

I'm all for some good old ghost stories.

[KidKruger]

Binary - no i wasn't digging at anybody, just saying why (probably why) Louisa didn't get what she originally asked for as OP, i.e. "I wondered if anyone else had seen or heard of any local ghostly activities?"

[Robert Poste's Child]

Though the intellectual wnaking has been amusing, you have to admit.

[Burbage]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> I'm all for some good old ghost stories.

So am I, to be honest. There's nothing I like better than meeting up with the coven in Dulwich Woods, where after a bit of bat-charming, we'll share spooky stories and toasted crumpets. But perhaps that's because it's about the only time I allow myself to wear anything floaty. One of the best stories is the Tale of the Haunted Outfitters, which I can't give justice to on this forum, mostly because it's not mine, but which would surely strike a plangent chord in the heart of any gent who's experienced the back room of a provincial shirtsmiths.

Sadly, local spooklore is very deficient on all counts. The Ghoul of G****C*** Lane rarely gets beyond the title, the same dimensionless salesperson seems to hang out in every shop on the Lane and almost everything else turns out to be the council. There might have been potential in the sportive genres of clowns and scarecrows, which might easily have stolen what spectral thunder there is, but it's all died a depressingly unsuspicious death. A few more noises from the Grove Tavern, though, and we might have something to work with.

[binary_star]

After some killer treads, The Cherry Tree keeps coming back to life does that count?

[Robert Poste's Child]

Apparently a number of people have reincarnated in this very forum.

[El Pibe]

Haven't they just

[maxxi]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> Haven't they just

cold comfort for any witchfinder generals around*

*chokes on swanee whistle

[binary_star]

"Morphic Resonance"

What happens when you try to replicate his studies?

This: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ruperts-resonance

Of course I'll never get to know what being telepathic is really like because according to Sheldrake:

"Skeptics dampen the morphic field, whereas believers enhance it."

Which basically boils down to only being able to experience something if you believe in it which also boils down to something everyone else calls faith.

Which is fine, but faith sure as sh!t ain't science.

[binary_star]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> Binary - no i wasn't digging at anybody, just

> saying why (probably why) Louisa didn't get what

> she originally asked for as OP, i.e. "I wondered

> if anyone else had seen or heard of any local

> ghostly activities?"

Yes it has gone a bit awry but that was bound to happen when people started citing bogus papers and referencing random university departments as if to validate any of this stuff at the expense of any real evidence...you can't do that without expecting a response.

And since someone mentioned the Scole Experiments, here's one for the road:

http://skeptoid.com/mobile/4179

[fabfor]

Wot, no tales, short or tall?

Fear not, experience beats conjecture every time! :-)).

[Alan Medic]

Has a winner been announced in this thread? I lost interest a while back so just wondering who came out on top?

[Robert Poste's Child]

Both sides are whistling in the dark, aren't they - fact is we don't know. Several of the antis should lose points for manners, though.

[Louisa]

In typical EDF style a thread goes a million miles off-topic. This was not meant to be a debate about the existence of life itself, it was about sharing stories and sightings for those interested. I may as well have gone out in the middle of a gale and whistled in the hope someone could hear me.

Louisa.

[MagMag]

Hi Louisa - I hear you, loud clear......

I used to know someone who was regularly visited by an old man, in the middle of the night; he would sit by the edge of her bed for a while and then disappear. What amazed me is that she was never freaked out by this visitation.

[Louisa]

MagMag I've heard about these night visitations. I've been informed by a psychic that activity tends to be greatest in the early hours. It sounds as though he was just visiting to say hello or to reassure perhaps? These are my favourite visitations. Full of love and not at all intended to frighten.

Louisa.

[Chick]

MagMag Wrote:

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> Hi Louisa - I hear you, loud clear......

>

> I used to know someone who was regularly visited

> by an old man, in the middle of the night; he

> would sit by the edge of her bed for a while and

> then disappear. What amazed me is that she was

> never freaked out by this visitation.

Sounds like she was dreaming.

[Robert Poste's Child]

A friend of mine when she was little looked out through her bedroom window one day and saw her aunt walking around the side of the house to the back door, as she often did. A bit later that day she was told her aunt had died.

[StraferJack]

"A friend. A family member. I was told."

Over and over again

A lot less "I was there and I definitely saw/recorded/was with someone else who saw same thing"

And instead of "hmmm good point" it's all " some people don't want to believe and are just plain rude bwah hah hah"

Grow the fuck up people

Santa. Not real

Yeti. Not real

UFO. Not real

Ghosts. Not real