Classes for pre-school kids - value for money?

[MrsP]

Does anyone else feel that the current plethora of kids classes (monkey music, caterpillar music, diddi dance, sing and sign) are cashing in on parents with money to spend without providing any real value for money. I recently attended a taster music class with my two kids at dulwich park. It consisted of 45 minutes of singing to a CD and bashing a few instruments. There was no real engagement with sounds or rythmn, I least expected someone to be actually playing an instrument - I mean we can sing to a CD quite happily at home and not pay ?6 for the pleasure! I feel that I am being taken advantage of, and will be sticking to messy play at home, singing with friends and walks in the wood. Does anyone else feel disappointed, or have I missed something?

[Pickle]

Couldn't agree more! And I hate the way you have to sign up for a whole term at most of them, quite unrealistic when you've got small children as there are so many reasons why you may not be able to attend - in which case you're throwing away money.

I went to a taster session of one of the groups you mention above, and found it was really stuffy with far too many rules and regulations to realistically be any fun for a toddler.

I've been going to a great music class for over a year now with my oldest child. It's called "Ruby Rhymes", and is at the church at the top of Red Post Hill - not ED, but pretty close by. You don't have to sign up for a term, just turn up when you can, it's ?5 a session, and she doesn't use a CD. She plays guitar, sings a mixture of traditional and original songs and has a good selection of instruments for the kids. It caters for young babies through to school age kids.

[Cora]

Prices across the board are shooting up and a new irritant is the arrival of the 'Registration Fee'?!!

I guess it's the old market forces arguement...if people are willing to pay.

I do pay but am much less happy with the arrangement and do feel like I'm being taken for a ride.

I would think ?5 for a 45mins class is ample - Ten kids ?50 - ?20 for the hall (that's a guess?!), ?30 quid profit. Although I guess that doesn't count for the preparation, equipment and setting up time. I guess whereas before it was a way to make a little bit of money, while often bringing up your own children, people are now seeing it as a way of making a second income and it's working....

Would be interesting to hear the realities of running a class - any organisers out there? At the moment classes seem to be veering towards ?6.50 for half an hour with a 'registration fee'.

The CD music comment is interesting as I recently tried a class that used recorded backing music and my toddler just didn't respond - everything else about the class was very professional and well organised and the person that ran it could certainly have done the songs without the backing music but I think she felt the recorded music was part of the professional package.

[NatashaD]

I honestly think that pre-schoolers have more fun doing stuff with their parents, as opposed to attending these kinds of groups. Not only are these groups expensive, and annoying because you have to sign up for a course - I'd say kids would be happier spending 45 minutes banging a wooden spoon on a big, empty, metal coffee jar. At home.

In signing up to these courses, you are not enabling your children to get used to being 'bored'. sorry but life just aint exciting all the time. Kids need to learn to use their imaginations more, and they can quite easliy do that in the park or on the kitchen floor.

[Cora]

Believe me my kids have plenty of time banging things at home with me and getting bored....the classes give us a structure to the day which as a full-time mum I appreciate and they enjoy....admittedly I look for the free options first...

[redjam]

I think classes have a place, as long as you're not constantly dragging your kids from one to another every day. We've done Caterpillar Music in the past and go to Diddidance now, which my daughter loves. She still loves hopping around to music at home and bashing her tambourine, but the classes offer her the chance to socialise with other kids, learn new things, play with different instruments etc that we just don't have at home. And realistically you don't always have the energy/imagination to organise stimulating activities at home, so it's good to have a focus to the day. Some classes seem better value than others, admittedly, but I wouldn't say they're a rip-off - I don't think a fiver or so is bad for 45 minutes of entertainment. Less than a large glass of wine in some of the pubs round here!

[usedtolivenearby]

hello,

Found this thread by checking out search links for my own class and thought you would like to hear the other side.

As a parent, I do agree with some of the things you have said, but like most things in life there are good and bad types of classes.

I run messy play classes, sadly not in East Dulwich although I used to live nearby, which is spooky. I do appreciate it's slightly different in the Big smoke to where I live now, but to give you the jist-

Our outgoings consist of hall hire (?23 per morning, we're talking countryside prices here not your London prices), PL insurance (absolute must), equipment and materials. Being a craft/messy play group we have quite a few more material outlay than other types but all types of equipment gets wear and tear with 20-30 children using it more often. We also have had to have enhanced CRB checks, build and maintain a website, build and maintain a level of publicity and marketing. Those quarter page adverts in glossy parenting magazines cost from ?70 upwards per issue. There's also the issue of time, it takes me up to an hour to prepare and pack my car for a class, half an hour set up and an hour to clear up, pack the car, unpack and clean up at home. So, an hours class is about 3 hours of my time. And that doesn't count the time taken to update the website, phone people back, arrange marketing....

So, it's sadly not as much of a money maker as it seems, although there is money to be made otherwise we would all be in the looney bin for doing it. We don't charge a registration fee and our classes are ?3.75 at the moment. We do ask for payment half termly, as knowing how many we have helps to keep our costs down and we pass back to the parents but if our parents know about a holiday/doctors appointment in advance we discount it by those weeks. Which is quite generous as we still have to pay our overheads.

Having said all that I do agree with a lot of your thoughts- if you go to all and sundry it can cost a lot of money, children don't need to do classes all of the time and some classes are not great value for money. However, some are, and I know our children get a lot from it, the parents/carers get a chance to get out and meet others and in our case many parents would rather pay us ?3.75 for 7 activities which they would never do at home (yes- even the playdough) in a million years.:)) Which kind of makes it all worthwhile LOL.

[DaveR]

In my experience, most of the classes are pretty poor - I've sat through a few painful 'taster' sessions (I ought to give Diddi Dance and honourable exception because my daughter loves it and the lady who runs it is extremely good). I'm not sure whether they are actively preying on the paranoia of cash-rich time-poor parents, but it often seems that way.

I have noticed that the classes which are scaled down versions of essentially serious activities - ballet, football, gymnastics etc. - tend to be much better, as the people running them are genuinely committed and usually properly qualified - Little Kickers certainly falls into this category.

[CamberwellOz]

I have gone to a few taster sessions and really wasn't that impressed. I do use the Sure Smart brochure a lot and I'm surprised at how much they actually do offer for free. I highly recommend you pick a brochure up or download it off the internet. They have singing classes, dance classes and free swimming for pregnant mothers.

[Gubodge]

The only class I currently take my two to is Tin Pan Annie, and if you're after 'real' music then it might be for you (and they do do a free taster class so you can check it out for yourself. It's led by guitar, there is lots of dancing round, playing instuments and learning about rhythm. Mine love it.

[fuzzyboots]

Oh gosh! This all sounds really like parents suspect they're being exploited and not getting any value for money and fun/entertainment/lasting stimulation for either themselves or their children. That's really sad.:'(

I declare here and now that I am Trish Cummings, who runs Sing and Sign classes in Southwark, Greenwich and Lewisham with my business partner, Rebecca Clow and our team of teachers (who are all local mummies who've attended our classes and subsequently we've trained them to teach for us).

I'll respond first as a mummy and then as one of the baby classes providers.

1) As a mummy for the second time round in 2003 and a latent musician (my eldest has just got into Manchester Uni to read French and German YAY:)-D) I was very keen to find an enjoyable music/singing based class for my daughter, now nearly 6 years old. We signed up to a local provider (whom I shall not name)and duly went along to our classes. I have to say, I was rather staggered (and miffed) at being asked to pay a "one off (compulsory) membership fee" as I frankly couldn't see what benefit I'd derive from it. The cost then, in 2003, worked out at ?5 for a half an hour class and required full payment in advance for the term, plus of course this "fee".

Well, I have to say, I "stuck it out" for one term and then decided (through familiarity and lack of any better ideas) to sign up for a second term. I quickly learnt that the quality of the class depends not only on the subject matter (which was good, by the way) but the teacher too. We had two changes of teacher, i.e. 3 teachers in the 3 terms - for legimate reasons - and it was obvious that the "best" one was the one we'd had first of all. The subequent teachers very much gave the impression of doing the job whilst they were waiting for their big break as singers/actors. They didn't bother to learn the children's names, the children weren't allowed to do anything other than sit on their parent's/carer's lap and we were actually turfed out after 25 mins in order for the room to be clear for the next class to start on time.

I wasn't impressed and often found myself attending out of a sense of wanting value for money/duty to keep the weekly routine going for my daughter. I frequently found myself questioning why I was paying ?5 a week to bang a tambourine for half an hour, when I could, as other posters have pointed out, have done that rather more easily and cheaply at home.

During my second term with these classes, I also signed up for baby signing classes with Sing and Sign, in Sutton, because that was the nearest such class to me and I was very interested in establishing effective, calm, stress free, unfrustrated communication with my daughter after the horrendous experience I had with my older son :-$

Honestly, there was no comparison between the two classes. I wouldn't have missed my (hour's drive against the rush hour traffic) Sing and Sign class for the world, whereas if something cropped up on the day of the other class, I would be prepared to miss it. I actually found the baby signing classes incredibly stimulating for the whole week between classes as I had something to get my teeth into with my daughter and what's more, our teacher (now emigrated to Australia sadly) knew every baby and every parent's name, and didn't kick us out at the end of the class but lingered and took a genuine interest in us. The music and baby participation/interaction in the class was brilliant, too. And the class was 45 mins, but was so relaxed that we were always there for an hour.

I was so completely sold on the benefits, rewards and pleasures of baby signing and the enjoyable nature of the classes that I bought the local franchise for Sing and Sign as soon as I could bear to put my daughter with a childminder. That was four and a half years ago and I'm loving every minute of it still. In fact, before the beginning of every term, I can't sleep with excitement (how sad is that?!)

I completely empathise and understand the feeling of being ripped off as a parent. There's a lot of unspoken peer pressure out there, and the concomitant fear that if one doesn't participate in a particular activity then one/one's baby is somehow missing out/letting down one's child.

And now, with my Sing and Sign hat on!

2) The first thing I'd like to say is that we (all the private sector baby/toddler activity) providers operate in an open market. Parents vote with their feet and word of mouth recommendation (or otherwise!) is the greatest fuel that brings new famillies to our doors. Of course, there's always a novelty factor when new classes offering new activities start up, but that customer base will soon fade if you don't deliver what you say you will. The competition is pretty fierce in fact.

Sing and Sign in Southwark, Greenwich and Lewisham, charges ?6.50 per class, for an 11 week term, working out at ?71.50 for the term and yes, we do ask people to book in advance for the whole term. There is a membership OPTION (?15) but it really is an option. In fact, I usually forget to mention it to our families (::o) and often get comments on our feedback forms that they didn't know membership was available (oops!)

The overheads in London are quite high... Our average room hire, PER HOUR, is ?18, which doesn't sound like much when you are sitting in a full class (our max is 12, but usually 11 babies and twins/multiples only pay for one baby but take up a space per baby) and you work out the maths. However, there are also: teacher wages and other costs, training costs, franchise fees, deposits for some venues, CRB/polic checking, public liability insurance, employers liability insurance, accountants fees, tax (TAX!), kits, clothes, class materials, folders for handouts, advertising, promotional activities and materials (posters, post cards, balloons, free taster sessions) etc, etc, etc, etc, to cover as well. And of course, the admin, whew! I daren't actually go too closely into what I actually earn (for 33 wks per year of actual income) per hour, because the admin happens every day, 52 weeks per year, one way or the other.

And by the way (slightly sniffily) this is my only income and I don't get any money from my husband for housekeeping (or anything else, come to that). The only other money I get is Child Benefit.. thank god!

If I didn't truly, truly love delivering our classes (and I believe with our Sing and Sign classes, we are pretty damn good at what we do, because we're all so passionate about it and that comes across to parents and babies alike) then it really wouldn't be worth the money for all the effort and cost involved. Once I add in my own childcare costs to this, it starts to look like a startlingly bad idea if you actually want a get even modestly rich quick for very little effort, employed (rather than self employed), NI and PAYE taken care of, job security, holiday pay, sick pay, maternity pay, pension contribution kind of job. This is not that job, believe me!

But I absolutely love doing it and it is the most rewarding, fulfilling and gratifying occupation I've ever had. It is thrilling to see "our" families coming back with second and third babies, even though they remember most of the signs from the first time round, just because they've had such a jolly, memorable and stimulating time and made such good friends from attending our classes. It is moving and a huge privilege to see babies learning to sign with their parents/carers, to have them crawl up to your lap every week for a cuddle, to watch them developing every week - gaining confidence in the class situation, trying out new things, choosing their own instruments, learning to share, to tidy up, to acutely observe the adults in their company (body language, facial expression, tone of voice, other behaviour) and to simply have fun. We really get to know our babies and their adults and if you were to speak to my oldest graduates, they would tell you that I can't sing for some of their last ever class because I'm crying at the thought of "losing" them.

I can, of course, only speak for the classes that we deliver. But we've built up from 2 classes per week to 25 per week, which I hope indicates that we're getting something right for our customers. If we weren't, then our customers would fall away - there is, after all, plenty of competition for parents' purses out there.

We are interested to see what happens with the current economic doom and gloom. So far, for the September term, we've not noticed any drop in enrolments or renewals. For us, the reasons most people leave are: their babies are too old and need to "graduate", they're moving out of the area, they're going back to work. Maybe next year our numbers will be hit as larger utility bills, etc start to bite harder.

I've honestly NEVER had anyone ask for their money back because they hated the classes/found it wasn't for them (that's why we do free tasters, so people know what they're signing up for). We do our best to be flexible about people missing classes because of illness/holiday etc, but once the place in class is allocated to them, we can't give it to someone else, and in Sing and Sign's case, we are limited by head office (and for our/our customers' sanity's sake!) to an asbolute maximum of 12 babies per class. Quite often we run classes with fewer than this (our minimum number is 6). This means that these class may just about wash their face financially, or not. This is out of loyalty to the families who have chosen our classes and if we were a big corporation, our FD would instantly cancel all of these classes.

Sorry - I've banged on quite a bit haven't I?

But I do hope it's clarified what it's like to be on the providers' side of the fence. I have to say I do get really frustrated when certain types of mummy contact me and can only attend one particular time of day, on one particular day of the week, because they've "got some other class/activity" booked for every other time. As a mum, I despair! Are these parents frightened of actually spending time with their babies?! Do they believe that by attending every class under the sun their children will somehow benefit?

I know of plenty of working mums who would jump at the chance to spend a lazy afternoon, PLAYING WITH THEIR CHILDREN, or just chilling or going for a walk in the local park. It does make me wonder sometimes. What children want MOST OF ALL is to spend quality time with their significant adults. You don't have to spend money all the time to be a good parent. But I hope that what we offer is an incredibly valuable, stimulating and rewarding experience at our classes and that it is actually well worth the money we charge.

I do hope however, that, when parents sign up for any of the locally provided classes, that they genuinely feel they do receive value for money and that if they don't feel like that, that they feel able to raise this with the company concerned. We can't improve if we don't know how our customers feel. It's lovely to receive the compliments and heartfelt thanks that we do receive from our parents, but it's just as, if not more, valuable and informative to know when things aren't right, so that we can address them. (It's only happened twice so far).

I'd be happy to continue this at even more length (!) but I guess most readers will be rolling their eyes by now, if they've stayed reading this far ;-)

Anyone got strong feelings about what I've said? I'd be delighted to engage with you!

Trish Cummings

Sing and Sign in Southwark, Greenwich and Lewisham

[Ganapati]

I don;t think it's the classes, but the kids. No matter what "organised" activity you do with an under-three I guarantee you it's not going to hold their attention span. And why should it? 45 minutes is a long time for under-threes. Most "experts" say its far better to let them run around like headless chickens and do what they will. I think the classes are really more for parents to have somewhere to go/people to see, lest you go mad. The only class I've found worth it has been a ballet class where the teacher has been really good about making it fun and playful. It's only 30 minutes, but you can still see some of the kids (3-4) getting wriggly and losing interest.

[fuzzyboots]

Hi Ganapati

I thinki you raise two very fair point. 45 mins is a long time for under 3's (and arguably quite a lot of over 3's!). In my case, with Sing and Sign, our classes have asest structure each week which includes some "down" time, sero mummies and babies can relax and mingle and chatter (quite a lot...). There is no doubt that, particularly for younger babies, the classes are very much about the parents/carers meeting other people in the same boat, establishing new friendships, sharing a moan, etc. And there's nothing wrong with that.

My daughter goes to ballet and it's clear that some of them are better concentraters than others. Many of the children I've observed pick up the cues/behaviour from their parents too. If thee adult is interested in the proceedings, then the child is more likely to pay attention too. If however, the parent spends the entire time during the class fiddling with a mobile phone, or nattering to his/her neighbour, then the child tends not to make the most of the teaching opportunity, either.

At the risk of sounding school-marmish, you get out what you put in. If the parents and teacher display commitment, enjoyment and interest then the kids will pick this up and make the most of the opportunity.

I too have been a mum wondering how on earth I was going to get any adult conversation at all, especially when my DH was working incredibly long hours. There are plenty of formal and informal toddler groups, cafes, libraries, parks, etc in the vicinity and surely most mums will eventually venture out to start meeting new people? You don't have to have a huge budget available to achieve this, thankfully.

Trish/fuzzyboots

[Ganapati]

I'm sure Fuzzyboots, that Sing and Sign will be just fine. And yes, there is NOTHING wrong with going to these classes to meet other mums, and not just for the sake of "advancing" baby's learning. As for kids picking up cues from their parents...sure, why not...but at the ballet class my daughter attends every single parent there is raptly watching their child, and NO ONE talks on their phone, or files their nails, or talks to their neighbour, if anything, it all seems like we're *too* focused on the kids. But still, there are kids in the class who get bored...what a shock for 3-4 year olds!

>

> My daughter goes to ballet and it's clear that

> some of them are better concentraters than others.

> Many of the children I've observed pick up the

> cues/behaviour from their parents too. If thee

> adult is interested in the proceedings, then the

> child is more likely to pay attention too. If

> however, the parent spends the entire time during

> the class fiddling with a mobile phone, or

> nattering to his/her neighbour, then the child

> tends not to make the most of the teaching

> opportunity, either.

>

> At the risk of sounding school-marmish, you get

> out what you put in. If the parents and teacher

> display commitment, enjoyment and interest then

> the kids will pick this up and make the most of

> the opportunity.

[craigy]

I too have attended free sessions for some of the local music groups and have never felt the need to go for a full term... I cannot remember who said it but i was shocked that at one of them no one even asked the name of the children there, just got straight into the class and then seemed to be auditioning for cbeebies...

Personally, I now give them a wide berth (Trish- just so as you know i am not classing you in the same category as the monkey/ caterpillar music types). Last summer I did attend mother and baby yoga classes at Brockwell Lido which i will admit that I was doing more as a get out of the house thing rather than a genuine desire to do yoga but found that they had a good way of paying where you had to buy a block of 10 classes and were given a card but they could be used as and whenyou pleased so if you were away for a couple of weeks for baby or maybe holiday reasons then you did not feel you were wasting your money....

My favourite place is Peckham soft play as for ?1.35 for a 50 minute session I think it offers genuine salvation and value for money and we can sing and dance at home.....

[fuzzyboots]

Yeah, soft play is BRILLIANT, although slightly hazardous during school hols when there are loads of much bigger kids there. My boy (2.5) was knocked flying off the big yellow slide last week by an enthusiastic "big boy" :(

Ha ha Ganapati - I like your "too focused on the kids" observation. Got it in one. I have to say there have been many occasions in my classes when I've had to encourage parents to relax ad enjoy themselves and that little Johnny or Jane will start signing when s/he's good and ready.

I suspect that if lots of us lived much nearer our parents/families then this performance anxiety (about their parenting skills and their child's development) would not be so pervasive. I have a feeling it's probably a particular issue in London where there is such a large no of incomers.

And do you know, at home, although I really enjoy my children's company and playing with them, I am a firm fan of benign neglect and letting them get on with things! It makes me sad to see these children who are so dependent on being entertained all the time. Completely stifling for their learning about themselves, etc. I suspect some of them would be better off spending at least some time in a nursery or pre-school, so that they actually do have to stand on their own two feet a bit. Surely that's a parent's job - to prepare their children for independence? Ironically, that starts at their mothers' knees....

Trish/Fuzzyboots

[darcy]

Ganapati, can you tell me where the ballet class is? I would like my three-year-old to start but wanted something fun and not too structured.

[fuzzyboots]

hi Darcy

Hopping in on this question, because my daughter SO loves her ballet classes. I wholeheartedly recommend Fiona Foster to you. She teaches on Mon and Weds afternoons at Gowlett Road, and possibly elsewhere nearby on other days. Her numbers are 07771 691031 and 01689 858994. She's absolutely delightful and very gentle and understanding with the little ones. They utterly adore her.

New term starts 15th September I believe. ?5 for 30 mins.

HTH,

Trish

[Moos]

Been meaning to say for a while that my sprog loves Trish's Sing and Sign class - very relaxed, lots of fun.

[fuzzyboots]

Moos, (whoever you may be!) that's very kind of you! Thanks for the feedback. That's exactly how we'd hope you'd feel about your experience with us.:))

Trish/Fuzzyboots

[Ganapati]

Darcy--yes Fiona Foster is the teacher! She has a class on Friday's at Nunhead's St Silas with St. Anthony's church. She is excellent.

[LouieM]

Trish makes a good point when she says the people who run these classes have to pay franchise fees. I looked in to starting up a music class and the average fee for buying one of these franchises was about ?5000. This does include a lot but it means that a new class leader could work 10 hours a week for a year and make no money at all!

[Goodliz]

I can see why lots of sessions do a pre-booking scheme - after all they need to earn a living and cover their running costs. Sing and Sign is supposed to be great from what I have heard.

With regards to franchise fees - yes they are very high but there is always the option of setting up your own independent group. Once word travels that it is a good group you get plenty of people attending. I used to take one of my sons to 'The Tickle Shop' about 3 years ago. It was run by Gilly who was independent of any franchise and it was great. Not sure if it is still running now. The classes were packed as so many people had heard how good it was. You did need to book onto a term which I was a bit reluctant about at first but once I saw how good it was I did not mind at all.

Just thought I would also jump in and shamelessly give my new session a plug:

Beenie Bounce - fitness and fun for pre schoolers.

It is drop in so no need to pre-book.

Mondays at 10.45 at East Dulwich Community Centre on Darrell Road (next to the back of Dulwich Medical Centre)

The sessions are very active and use lots of equipment.

Suit ages 2-4yrs.

Cost ?5

Additional siblings over 2yrs ?3.00 (discount includes twins)

No charge for siblings under 2.

I hope some of you will give it a try.