Haberdashers' East Dulwich - 751 families supporting

[Coach Beth]

I think that it is important to remember that a new secondary school should help to increase the availability of places at other secondary schools like Charter, Harris Boys and also at schools like haberdashers hilly fields where east dulwich & nunhead children can go (music scholarship places more likely than on distance) increase of secondary school places will have a knock on effect on admissions to other schools.

[James Barber]

Hi Denmothersmith,

Any new school is likely to have a much larger admissions footprint if distance based.

But the steering group with the chosen partner would decide the admissions scheme it would like to implement and this would be consulted upon as part of the application process.

[intexasatthe moment]

"Any new school is likely to have a much larger admissions footprint if distance based "

but the Charter has a distance based footprint ,as do most primary schools ,and has a small admissions footprint .

The size of the footprint is determined by the popularity of the school .Popular school = small admissions footprint .

Or have I totally misunderstood the sentence James ?

[DenmotherSmith]

I really do not see how distance based admission can result in a much larger admissions foot print? If that were the case then Askes and Charter would have a bigger catchment 'foot print' then Kingsdale which they clearly do not. Happy to have it explained to me though if I have miss-understood.

This really is an opportunity to take on board all the pros and cons of various admissions strategies and come up with something new that serves the majority of applicants fairly. A mix of geographically liked lottery and distance based could work together. I believe Harris Crystal Palace uses a mix of distance and lottery.

[simonethebeaver]

Harris CP has an admissions area A which runs on distance, and an admissions area B, which is around the edge of area A, which has a lottery. IIRC area A is 90% of places and B 10%. They also band the kids for entry.

[James Barber]

Hi DenmonthSmith, ITATM,

Apolgoies, my mistake, I thought the following was obvious.

IF admissions was distance based...

The Charter School admission footprint, as with other now popular schools, has shrunk partly from a growth in local child numbers and partly from becoming more popular.

All I was suggesting was any new school, whoever provides it, will not convince everyone a year in advance of opening when places are applied for that it will be fabulous. That with success and even just being open a schools credibility will rise, its popularity will rise and IF admissions is distance base that distance will start shrinking. IF admissions based on distance and when it become fabulous that distance would shrink significantly.

Which why many have suggest purely distance based would not be ideal for a variety of reasons.

[DenmotherSmith]

Thank-you James for clarifying. I still think distance based admission is very open to abuse, and to becoming extremely small as the school and its 'fabulousness' is recognised by parents.

I wonder James if there is information available regarding the numbers of children in year four who reside in a one miles, two mile three , etc., geographical radius of the Dulwich hospital site? Though naturally not all these children would need or want to attend the new school they could all potentially be attendees. These kind of figures could give those deciding the admissions criteria an idea of how many children would possibly benefit/lose out from the various types of lottery/distance admission polices they may be considering.

I understand the frustration with lottery places i.e. you could live next door to Kingsdale and not get a place. But equally frustrating is an influx of renters very close to the school who all pi** off once they have a place leaving poor old long term resident who lives round the corner without a place.

I think there must be a better way. Perhaps there is an Admissions expert (LEA perhaps)who could help the steering group construct the fairest policy?

[TE44]

The Sutton Trust report today on ballot and banding admissions.

http://www.suttontrust.com/news/news/ballots-and-banding/

[DenmotherSmith]

Pulled from the Sutton report liked by TE44

"Schools that wish to achieve a comprehensive intake should use random allocation, in conjunction with a catchment area, or banding as these admissions policies can help schools to achieve an intake reflecting a wide ability range. One way of doing this, while making sure that those who live very close to schools are not unduly disadvantaged, could be to introduce both ?inner? and ?outer? catchment areas"

Hope the steering group have the courage to do something similar.

[Beryl]

Hi

I've been reading the posts with interest. It seems that there is a lot of concern about random allocation which I share. I wonder how to get those views represented on the steering group? Mr Barber was somewhat unclear as to the processes by which that would happen. I am also glad to see that some people have raised the very serious issues surrounding free schools - namely accountability, transparency and quality assurance processes.

I also note that during these threads there have been many calls for a public meeting ie. one larger than can be accommodated at Mr Barber's house. I would support that call now that things have progressed - an open meeting for full and frank discussion of the issues would surely be timely? I know Mr Barber is keen to postpone this until after the application but surely the application will represent the views of the steering group and not necessarily reflect any consensus?

[TE44]

I feel the admission policy is important, where banding is used, the goverments policy

of "fair and transparency" should be followed throughout secondary years, avoiding situations

like we've seen, where children are not being accounted for when reaching gcse's. If a banding system is set up,

How hard is it to give out the figures of children leaving or moving to alternative provision, what band they were in when coming to the school. I realise this is about getting a school up and running, but wonder how muchh say the steering ggroup will have.

James I would appreciate information on reply back from sponsers, as others have said, this iss a local issue.

[Grotty]

Good to see that the support is increasing towards the 180...

[Katy Tonbridge]

James: Some sort of compromise between geographical distance and lottery seems to be a good idea. But also, what about some acknowledgment of how long you have lived in an area? Here's a fictitious example based on a true story.

* Family A live on Chesterfield Road. They've lived in East Dulwich for over ten years. Their eldest child is at Goose Green School. Children from their road have always gone to Charter.

* Family B live near Peckham Rye. They have lived in East Dulwich for eight years. Their child goes to Goodrich. In October, the parents contrived a temporary 'separation'. They have arranged to rent a one bed flat near Red Post Hill. It's a 12 month rental. The mother now 'lives' there (ahem), the family home is still Peckham Rye.

* Family C have been in Clapham since they came to London, but last year moved to a house in the Herne Hill Triangle.

All three apply to get into Charter.

Under the current rules, the child of B & C gets an automatic places at Charter. The child of Family A, demonstrably committed to SE22 and the local community long term, is on the waiting list but may well miss out. A criterion that said that the main address you live at must be one you have been at for at least, say, two years would rule out at least the most crass of the parental manipulation that goes on. To be fair to renters, who may have to shift address when it's not their choice, if you have lived in your current address for under two years, but your previous address was also in the catchment area, that would also qualify.

No system is perfect, but the current one is massively skewed towards the wealthy (and to a small number who are morally bankrupt).

[James Barber]

Hi Katy,

I feel a lot of sympathy for long term Families being gazumped for school places in the way you've described. The key for me is ensuring we have another equally popular secondary school to avoid such situations.

It seems most secondary providers use banding which would go someway to avoiding those situations described.

[intexasatthe moment]

James without some geographical restriction ( inner and outer areas for example ) banding widens the geographical area as average candidates living near the school face competition from those below and above average who are offered places to ensure a mixed intake .

You can see this clearly in the distances some of the pupils at ED boys travel to get to the school .

[edanna]

Adding banding isn't going to stop the issue of people moving close to the school to get into it. I think it's more or less impossible to stop that other than having a lottery system like Kingsdale, which I wouldn't support. One of the big problems with secondary school applications in this area is the lack of certainty. If admissions to the new school are by distance and you live close enough to the school or whatever 'nodal points' are chosen, then you can be reasonably certain of getting a place. I appreciate that doesn't bring certainty for people who are on the outer edge of the catchment area but it will certainly help a lot of people. And hopefully if there are enough school places locally then in principle that should remove the incentive to move a short distance to get into a particular catchment.

[TE44]

http://wembleymatters.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/the-green-partys-education-policy.html?m=1

Choices, honesty and fairness seems to have no place in this centrelised education system.

James After your words about decisions of parents, steering committee and local consultation, it seems by

your comment "most secondary providers use banding", what happened to everyone else involved in the decision.

The green party seem the only ones who will stand against the privatisation of our schools.

We have been put in a situation where choices are restricted, no room for change outside a

system created to shut people out. I have no political agenda,and I'm

sorry if this is the wrong thread to air these views, but restriccted or no choice does not correlate

with a Free school.

Edit to say linked blog because cant put up pdf on phone

[James Barber]

Hi TE44,

No privatisation of our is planned or proposed.

It is against the law for state schools to be for profit. So I'm bemused with what you've posted.

Hi edanna, ITATM,

I think you're mixing banding with popularity. ED Harris Boys Academy hasn't had any GCSE results yet. Everyone is expecting great results and it's popularity and distance of banded admissions to decrease.

As some have highlighted here simple crow flies can see people moving to guarantee places it also doesn't ensure comprehensive intakes. Banding can result in different issues. Their isn't any one pure correct admissions.

Lottery to me doesn't feel right as we wouldn't necessarily end up with a local community school. People who love close to any school with the demerits of such proximity are unlikely to obtain places when our new. School becomes incredibly popular.

But I don't get to decide these things. It would be the preference of any great provider we all ask to take this project on. And looking around most have banding.

[intexasatthe moment]

James no I'm not mixing banding with popularity.

It's obvious that if you have ability bands that need to filled you are seeking to offer places to non average ability children . Both below and above average .Because you are looking for non average children you have to cast your net further afield .

[simonethebeaver]

There are two ways of banding. Lewisham bands all their primary children in year 5 through a non-verbal reasoning test. All the children are put on a continuum and this is divided into five bands. The child's allocated band is included on the CAF and the schools participating then take equal numbers from each band on distance.

The other method is used by several local schools and involves schools administering their own NVR tests to those who have applied. They are also divided into equal bands and offers are again made on distance within bands to achieve equal numbers.

The slight difference is that under the second system, the school cannot be short of applicants in any one band.

[mariababe]

Just a quick question James - do you know why Southwark do not provide statistics (like they used to) per school, Lewisham do....

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/education/schools/school-admission/applying-to-start-secondary-school/Documents/SecondarySchools201415.pdf

It would be very useful to back up so much mis guided ideas about banding, ability, etc. pretty sure these stats must be somewhere - Kinsdale for example claim to use 3 bands and then a lottery within them...but I would like to know how many places within each band.

It seems that this new school which is very much needed is coming under incredible scrutiny before even confirmed yet the schools existing already seem to do what they like (admissions wise).

[intexasatthe moment]

I think there is more than a slight difference between banding an existing discrete group and banding used to ensure that each cohort contains a specific range of abilities .

The former is simply dividing up an exiting group into 5 ( or whatever ) the latter is seeking applicants to fill bands .

[simonethebeaver]

Which system seeks applicants? I don't think a single Lewisham school lacked applicants altogether in a particular band. They may well have different numbers of applicants in each, and distances will vary, but I don't think any target bands they are 'low' in. Obviously when you band applicants to a specific school you run no risk at all of not filling all your bands, but you can't be completely sure you reflect the local or national spread of abilities because your group is self selecting and could conceivably all be at one end of the ability spectrum, divided into bands within that.

Outside the theory of it, the reality is that children mostly apply to their nearest school so long as it meets their needs, so the banding will just be dividing up the local kids.

[intexasatthe moment]

The point I'm making is that banding on its own and without geographical elements added in ,like Bacons College for example won't ensure that places go to local people .

Harris give very little detail about their banding system - for example it would be interesting to know whether they are dividing up that years intake into 9 equal bands or whether the higher bands take a greater number with the individual bands being unequal in size .

Dividing up a nos of people into equal size bands is what you are referring to I think but there are different types of banding .

"Banding

1.25 Pupil ability banding is a permitted form of selection used by some

admission authorities to ensure that the intake for a school includes a

proportionate spread of children of different abilities. Banding can be used to

produce an intake that is representative of:

a) the full range of ability of applicants for the school(s);

b) the range of ability of children in the local area; or

c) the national ability range. "

Schools Admissions Code D of E

[James Barber]

Hi ITATM,

Sorry I had assumed banding and distance within bands. A la Lewisham school generally and I believe ED Harris.

If it aims to ensure a comprehensive representative sample of local children across all abilities then that would work for me. To ensure it's working I would anticipate any school we help create regularly reviewing admissions to ensure its meeting this aim.

Tyis would be for places after things like siblings, SEN, looked after children.