Haberdashers' East Dulwich - 751 families supporting

[Belle]

Just to say, this phase of consultation is now closed (if you go on the link, it explains it on the Haberdasher's website) - because the application will be submitted early October. However, there will be further scope to share views about admissions policies - i.e. if the bid gets to the next stage - and of course there is the public meeting tomorrow night too. There is still the option to show support for the Haberdasher's bid on the link posted above.

On the catchment area, I guess it is difficult for anyone to predict, though I understand why it is frustrating for you. I am (as I've previously said) on the Haberdasher's parent steering group, and part of the reason I support Habs is that is that I too live too far away to have a hope of Charter (either existing or proposed new school). I have always supported the idea of a school which offers the right admissions policy for the area. This is only anecdotal, but I have heard of a parent who attended the Charter public meeting and was told his children would have 'no chance' of entry to the new Charter if they were East of Lordship Lane (let alone East of Barry Road, which looking at the map above is where a huge section of the demand is).

[Beryl]

Hi Belle. I have also heard something similar and now that I've read the post from MsMaz I am really concerned. We live in the Peckham Rye area and I assumed the Charter bid would be covering there because otherwise they will be duplicating some of their existing catchment area which just doesn't make sense. Especially when you look at the Heat map. Thanks Samstopit. Very disappointed with Charter if this is the case.

[parentsteeringgroup]

As Belle says, the period of consultation has officially ended, because the bid is due in on 10th October. However if you want to add comments about admissions or anything else please email [email protected] and your feedback will be included. You can also give your feedback face to face tomorrow night to the Habs team.

It's not too late to register support for the Habs bid on the link that samstopit posted above. If you registered early on via James Barber it's important that you re-register on the Habs web site because there is an option on there to tick the box saying that Habs would be your first choice if it is the chosen provider. DfE need this box ticked.

Hope to see some of you tomorrow evening.

[MsMaz]

Thanks to all those on the steering group. I did email Charter about admissions as wasn't sure if I'd be in their catchment and this was the response:

Thank you for your query regarding Admissions criteria "as the crow flies". We are proposing to open our new school to meet the local demand of families who cannot get their child into high quality local provision - and banding does not do this, of course, as numbers for each band mean that families who live reasonably close, but for whom the narrow band numbers have already been filled, will not be offered a place.

"As the crow flies" is the feedback we have received from our consultation events with families and the local community, and best addresses local need. In your specific case (without knowing your road) it would be highly likely that a Peckham Rye Park address would be well within the "catchment" area, as we are keeping the measurement nodle point to the furthest southern edge of the proposed school site.

So I'm sure it would have to stretch beyond east of Lordship Lane but I did ask further if they could do a geographical estimate from the postcode of supporters (just like your lovely heat map). But no answer, was just advised to come along to one of the upcoming meetings.

[samstopit]

I'm sure if you email them they will take you off their list. Thanks for posting that reply. Makes interesting reading.

Habs haven't made a final commitment to banding by the way, they are genuinely consulting on the admissions procedure. If they are the successful bidder they will consult again on admissions. I've been assured by the Habs project team that banding doesn't lead to local children being denied a place, especially for a popular school where local demand is likely to be high. The intention of banding is to ensure a comprehensive intake.

[katgod]

looking at the stats for Forest Hill Boys I see that the different ability bands have differing 'last distance offered' distances, so banding is not a magic solution. if you fall in the 'wrong' band you end up disappointed. Are the bands proposed for Habs based on local applicants? Or some notional average? If all the children in Se22 are mini geniuses then there won't be room for everyone in the top band! Or is that not how it works?

[samstopit]

Katgod, if you scroll back to page 17 of this thread at the bottom of the page mariababe posted a document which explains the way Habs do banding in their lewisham schools quite well. Several pages of discussion about banding follow that post.

Please remember that Habs can do admissions differently in southwark in response to consultation.

Feel free to email questions / suggestions as suggested above or come in person tomorrow.

[legalalien]

I had a Charter flyer in the mail today.

Interestingly, it says that even if I've signed up to the Haberdashers campaign, I still need to sign up to the Charter campaign as well, as each bid is considered separately. Fair enough. Except that the Charter new school form requires you to sign to say that

?I would select The Charter School Educational Trust?s East Dulwich School as the first choice of secondary school for my child?.

Is that the statutory question? If so how can you support two bids? As it happens I suspect I'm in the existing Charter catchment, so wouldn't put the new school as a "first" choice and wouldn't sign on the basis of this specific wording. So why leaflet me?

Is it the case that only parents likely to be within the catchment of the new school "count" for DFE purposes? This would help explain why Charter might want an overlapping catchment - they can rely on the support of parents within the existing catchment area who may already have a connection with the school?

Doesn't affect me personally, just interested.

[legalalien]

Actually ignore that, I found the other thread discussing the 'first choice" wording issue.

Also have answered my own question, found the DFE assessment criteria - pasted below. Not quite sure how the form on the Charter website is going to satisfy the second bullet point though -I would have expected the form to include some sort of "tick the box to confirm you've received and read info" thing on it? Actually, same applies to the HABS form. But I do wonder whether actively / expressly encouraging people to support more than one application undermines the school's argument / makes submissions look more like a "generic expression of interest".

"Complete the parental demand table in the application form showing how many parents (or students for 16 to 19) would select your school as their first choice for the first two years of the school?s life

? Demonstrate that potential parents (or students for 16 to 19) have made an informed decision when choosing your school as their first choice. Please include the text you have used in leaflets or other promotional material for prospective parents (or students for 16 to 19) about the particular characteristics of your school. You must make sure that this adequately describes the school you are proposing; we will not consider generic expressions of interest in a new school to be sufficient evidence that there is demand for the school you are proposing

? Provide a map which shows that potential pupils (or students for 16 to 19) live within commuting distance of your school

? Provide details on the extent of any current or forecast shortage (basic need) or surplus of places in the relevant phase of education within the school?s proposed vicinity (if you have already set this out in the vision section, please refer to the relevant page)

? Provide a brief summary of the standards in local schools in the relevant phase using Ofsted judgements and pupil attainment and progression data (if you have already set this out in the vision section, please refer to the relevant page)"

[Cora]

The bids need to show that there is a parent demand for a secondary school on this site. In order to do this parents need to say they would put the new school as their first preference.....no one will check up later to see if you did indeed put it first. Nor will anyone get into trouble for ticking both campaigns as their first preference - it just shows that the school will be full whichever organisation ends up running it.

[samstopit]

I'd have to add to Cora's point that if you feel strongly about one school or the other it might be wise to only tick the box about first choice for one school. I suspect that after a few years the Charter catchment around the hospital site would tighten and many families in ED would be out of catchment. If I thought the Charter bid was going to solve the lack of provision in ED I'd support both bids.

[legalalien]

Hmm. But presumably you wouldn't expect existing charter parents to be supporting the proposal, as presumably they'll be sending younger siblings to the same school as older ones?

Apologies, as haven't been following this to date, is the plan for the two Charter schools - if Charter is successful - to share facilities? Presumably yes - so that children at "old charter" would get the benefit of facilities at New Charter? Is that a factor in the Charter bid? Will/ could admissions be done on a combined basis eg so that children in the overlapping catchment area are encouraged to join one school or the other? Eg if encouraged to choose New Charter (or if decide to do so because New Charter has better facilities) then the Old Charter catchment would move westward towards Herne Hill and the new catchment would remain quite small on the ED side? Or am I confused?

[samstopit]

I honestly don't know why charter are leafleting their existing catchment. I could speculate but would rather not on here. I agree with you that it's not appropriate for you to support their bid. The campaign for a new school for East Dulwich should be engaging families who don't already have access to co-ed secondary provision.

Hopefully somebody who knows more about Charter's plans can answer your questions about how they will manage applicants across both sites. I'm aware that they plan to share facilities.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Maybe post on the charter thread since this is the Habs thread and they should hopefully see your questions and reply ?

I am supporting both. I prefer Charter personally but happy with either .

[Cora]

Sorry yes, of course if you have preference for one then of course stick to that.....and a reminder that if you want to grill the Haberdashers campaign about admissions or any other subject there is a drop-in session at Goose Green TONIGHT 7-8.30pm

[legalalien]

I'm just idly speculating as I'm not personally affected.

James, if you read this, does the funding for a new school come out of the same funding pot as the funding for a school expansion? Just pondering whether a "new school" proposal would have some obvious financial advantages to Charter over a proposal to expand the existing school? Or other advantages eg improved facilities for existing charter students? Just seems odd to have two similar schools run by the same provider so close together - surely there'd be obvious efficiency gains in merging them?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Sorry, my tone didn't come across how I intended it to , they are good points you raised but I thought if you posted it on the charter thread then it's gives them a chance to reply in the event they aren't viewing this particular thread .

[legalalien]

Don't worry - not offended! Hopefully I'm not going over too much old ground, just that I only started to pay proper attention to this when I was leafletted today!

Will hope over to the other thread, but if anyone can enlighten me as to the number of new places being proposed by each of the bids I'd be interested....

[samstopit]

Habs is proposing a 6 form entry secondary school plus a sixth form. And hopefully a decent amount of outside space.

... Which means no room for a primary on the site. Those who follow us on FB / twitter will have seen today's article in Southwark news. See attached.

[clux]

We got a charter leaflet and we live near Queens Road Station, so a very long way out of catchment!

[legalalien]

Actually less than 2 k as the crow flies according to www.daftlogic.com, which I have just become obsessed by. So possibly in catchment if it was on crow flies.....

[legalalien]

I tell a lie :). My pc had switched to miles!!!!

[MsMaz]

They should not be getting supporters for new school bid that are already in the Charter catchment - that doesn't make sense. Their support list should be showing DfE that it's responding to an additional demand, surely?

[intexasatthe moment]

It makes sense if demand outstrips supply .Which it does .It's not as if just living in the catchement area guarantees you a place .

[legalalien]

Actually just coming back to an earlier point, the bids don't just need to show that there's support for "a secondary school" on the site, they need to be tied to a particular secondary school and there needs to be proper evidence that those who have signed up have received reasonably detailed info about the particular option in question - or at least that's what the material on the new schools network site seems to indicate ( including the template survey which says it is approved by dfe). ( with my stickler for detail hat on it's not clear to me how the bidders are going to evidence this, eg there's little detail given on the online sign up form for Charter. Maybe email more detailed info to those who have signed up and give them a chance to withdraw?)

Am sure those involved in the bid know what they're doing but having multiple bids doesn't seem to fit well with the dfe reqts. A pity that there couldn't be a single form, with people listing their preference...

Intexas, this is why I don't think leafleting me makes sense. The question I'm being asked to answer isn't whether I think there should be a new school, it's whether I would choose Charter 2 over Charter 1, a decision I guess I would take in practice having regard to the likelihood of getting in to Charter 1. But given I am very close and the two schools will presumably be similar, how do I make that choice? By nominating Charter2 I'd be suggesting there was something lacking at Charter 1, wouldn't I?

Enough on this - must stop googling....