Haberdashers' East Dulwich - 751 families supporting

[James Barber]

Hi TE44,

Short of you doing everything everyone does at Hab and the EFA I doubt you'll ever be totally satisfied. The EFA are not perfect, not am I and nor are you.

Both Habs and the EFA have auditors. Both produce audit reports. Both have learnt lots from what happened. That's also why Habs are suing their previous auditor.

Life is about who to trust and when. Habs have existed for an awfully long time educating a huge number of children. So yes if I'm guilty of anything it is trusting that after 420+ years of providing education they know what they're doing. I trust Habs more for having experienced this alleged fraud and learning from it. What we measured against were those newer systems and processes that have been in place for over two years and were the method the alleged fraud was discovered by.

[TE44]

I agree James life is about who to trust and when, on past experience with EFA they have been untrustworthy. I shall look forward to seeing all finances handled by Habs actually going to the pupils it was intended for.

I'm slightly surprised you've made no mention of them and regardless of who is at fault the children were the

victims.

By the way James life is also about being able to question things that don't feel right to you,

maybe a clearer picture will come with the court case.

[James Barber]

Hi TE44,

I also hope the court case happens soon so everyone will have the facts. It is an immensely grustrating situation.

I beleive thE Habs children have still had a fabulolus education despite this alleged fraud.

Recovering any monies will give Habs a large lump sum to invest in their schools for the benefit of current and future pupils. I hope some of it will go to our new secondary school.

We share a potentially major problem with the Charter campaign in that NHS Property are 'soft marketting' the site to massive housing developers. Unless Southwark Council amends the Dulwich Hospital SPD NHS property will then try and sell two-thirds of the land at high residential land values rather than current book value of a community use. This high price will preclude the EFA buying all the land not required for a health facility.

We need to convince Southwark Council to rapidly change this SPD - I suggested this to council leader in February when he first gave the councils blessing to the campaign. He said he didnt think this necessary. We need to change his mind.

[Otta]

TE44 Wrote:

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> Dont you mean Gaza situation, but lets not mix up

> threads here that have no relation to Habs.

Unless I've missed something there is no official name and being as you knew what I was talking about Im happy with my previous description for. the purpose of the post it was part of.

And loving the whole "will somebody just think of the children" tactic, but very much doubt any child missed out on anything because of the fraud.

[LondonMix]

parentsteeringgroup Wrote:

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> Some good news - Tessa Jowell has written to Nicky

> Morgan, Sec of State for Education, regarding the

> acute local need for a secondary school. Link

> below.

>

> https://twitter.com/jowellt/status/492214330939940

> 864

That is good news! At one point the parent steering committee was intending to approach her informally to explain the need for the hospital site to be used for a secondary school. Has that happened and do you have any sense if she is supportive of putting the Harris Nunhead primary school on the hospital site.

It would be good to understand for those more closely involved when a decision on the how to allocate the site will be made by the powers at be.

[TE44]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TE44 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Dont you mean Gaza situation, but lets not mix

> up

> > threads here that have no relation to Habs.

>

>

> Unless I've missed something there is no official

> name and being as you knew what I was talking

> about Im happy with my previous description for.

> the purpose of the post it was part of.

>

> And loving the whole "will somebody just think of

> the children" tactic, but very much doubt any

> child missed out on anything because of the fraud.

Are you having a laugh or what, keep on loving it, how hard it must be to comprehend chldren are involved here,

Oh there i go again.

[samstopit]

Thanks Londonmix. Tessa has been very supportive. You can tell from her letter she agrees that the priority in terms of local need is for a secondary school. It remains to be seen what Nicky Morgan's take will be, but we will post on here when we get a response. If her reply indicates that she thinks the Harris primary is a priority over a secondary (particularly if she thinks it should go on the dulwich hospital site) we will have to mobilise ...

[TE44]

http://newschoolfinance.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/a-seven-year-914k-fraud-at-haberdashers.html?m=1

scroll further down page for habs set of recent accounts. It seems before the conversion to a MAT (multi-academy trust) 16th September there was no break down for individual schools.

[Otta]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Are you having a laugh or what

At your posts, yes.

> how hard it must be to comprehend chldren are involved here,

Yes, they tend to be when we're talking about a school, but you suggesting that the poor victims suffered because this money was meant for them is a nonsense.

[TE44]

Not what some of the parents think. What do you think the money was allocated for, anyway with

Finances for all habs schools being combined its probably had to work out, I can see why its taken so long

to bring criminal charges looks like they've got to get there books in order.

[James Barber]

Hi TE44,

Habs books are fully in order otherwise the EFA wouldnt have approved two subsequent free schools, their auditor would qualify their accounts.

You've asked a question many of us have been pondering - why is it taking so long for the any suspects to be charged?

Clearly not a question for Habs or the Easst Dulwich New Secondary School Campaign.

You need to direct that question to Lewisham Police. I don't think they read the East Dulwich Forum so are unlikely to respond here.

Hi samstopit,

Lord Nash is the minster responsible for new free schools. WE will ask Tessa to write to him

[intexasatthe moment]

TE44 is only asking what many of us are also wondering .

And James just because you have a blind faith in a government body doesn't mean to say that they are deserving of it . Nor does repeating something make it true .

Who is it who decides what the subject of this thread is ? Moderators ?

You often use this ploy - we can't agree or we can't prove something one way or the other therefore we should stop discussing it . And before anyone wheels it out - neither does " come up with your solution then " tactic .

Tad to passive aggressive for my taste James .

[Otta]

So what exactly do you want to hear? Seriously.

[katgod]

James, why is the NHS marketing the site for housing a problem for the Charter bid? Isn't it a problem for Habs too? What is the Council and or the Steering Group doing to stop the whole project being scuppered by property developers? Sounds like the name might be a non issue if the land all sold off.

Interested that Habs are suing their auditors- not a step to be taken lightly, hopefully they have been well advised and have a reasonable prospect of success. So some hope some money will be recouped.

Does commenting on this thread count as 'support'? I cannot recall whether I have formally signed up, but like many people I really don't mind which school is chosen. Does not mean I do not like Habs, just that I would be equally happy with Charter. When looking at the bids does the D oE not look at overall support for the need for a school?

[parentsteeringgroup]

katgod you can register your support for the Habs campaign here:

http://www.haaf.org.uk/New-East-Dulwich-Secondary-School-1

If you want to find out more about the Habs campaign do have a look on the Habs website or look at the slides from the meetings and the Q&A document which are both posted on the 'have your say' thread in the family room. Let me know by PM if you have any questions.

[intexasatthe moment]

" So what exactly do you want to hear? Seriously." = " come up with your solution then " tactic .

I'm interested in hearing about and discussing issues that relate to the bid for a new secondary school in the area .

And yes I'm serious ,can't think what gave you the impression that I was joking ?

But I'm not interested in entering into an argument solely to justify my right to post on this thread .

[James Barber]

Hi katgod,

I posed the issue and pointed out it applied equally to both bids.

Southwark Council in 2005 issued planning policies for the hopsital site - https://www.southwark.gov.uk/downloads/download/2255/draft_dulwich_spd-related_planning_documents

It allows housing on ths site. NHS property have been soft marketing the site where they ask property developers to state what they would do with the site and how much it would be worth to them. None of these will be suggesting that the 2/3rds not need for new replacement health facilities be used only for a new secondary school. So NHS Property will have the maximum value of the site for residential property. They'll then insist the EFA pay that value to the land rather than based on its current community use.

The EFA will not be able to afford this inflated value.

The whole site hasa book value of ?18M. so the portion either campaign needs has a book value of ?12M. But clearly NHS Property are looking to sell for much more than this.

So without the formal planning execptations of Sotuhwark changing very quickly both campaigns will be priced out of obtaining 2/3rds fo the site.

[bornagain]

"Yes, they tend to be when we're talking about a school, but you suggesting that the poor victims suffered because this money was meant for them is a nonsense."

Seeing as the fraud took place at a school, whatever this ?4.1 million was going to be spent on, ultimately the purpose of the money is to benefit those children at the school. 'victim' is a loaded word, of course the pupils did not lose the shirts off their backs as a result of the fraud but highly likely that they may not have had some improvements in facilities because of the loss of ?4.1 million. How many mini-buses would ?4.1 million buy - well over 100!

[LondonMix]

So what powers do Nicky Morgan and Lord Nash have exactly and why is there a difference of opinion about the right contact person.

More to the point, who within the EFA establishes the appropriateness of land acquisitions for free schools? What exactly is considered and which parties concerns are taken into consideration?

? The school?s preferences (ie. Harris)

? Is the LA consulted?

? Other proposed free schools that may need to the site

? The local communities preference when competing schools both want a site

Also, who (Nicky Morgan or Lord Nash or someone else) has the ability to over-rule a decision made by the EFA in consideration of any / all of the above?

Gove?s letter suggested that as the Dulwich secondary was not yet approved, it wasn?t possible for the EFA to consider reserving the land for it. Are there any actual guidelines? Right now, I?m concerned that prior to the secondary school applications for Charter and Habs being submitted, the EFA will acquire the site for Harris and it will be a fait-accompli. There of course will be finger pointing and everyone stating it wasn?t their preference but without any real transparency about the process its difficult to understand what the best course of action really is to preserve the interests of the community.

[bornagain]

Thanks, TE44.

I was calling earlier for a more detailed and substantive statement from Haberdashers about what they are doing post-fraud. A paragraph on p7 in the financial statement for 2013 in your link gives something more substantive. I've attached a screen grab in case anyone is interested. This is the kind of thing that should be released for all to see (rather than buried in p7 of a report).

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://newschoolfinance.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/a-s

> even-year-914k-fraud-at-haberdashers.html?m=1

>

> scroll further down page for habs set of recent

> accounts. It seems before the conversion to a MAT

> (multi-academy trust) 16th September there was no

> break down for individual schools.

[LondonMix]

To the Parent?s steering committee?the current Dulwich Hospital SPD and the broader Dulwich SPD envision the surplus hospital land being used for mixed use development including community facilities (such as a school) and office / residential development. I understand that to incorporate all the needed facilities for a optimally sized secondary school, Habs believes they need 100% of the site for educational purposes.

The need to change the SPD is predicated on the assumption that the EFA will not pay market value for land that can in part be used for residential purposes. Is there an official policy with the EFA regarding how much the will pay for a site? In London, where land values are very high, if the EFA cannot pay market value, it appears new schools can only ever acquire sites that were once some form of government land with explicit limitations against using it for non-community purposes.

The entire land allocation / land acquisition process is very opaque and it would be appreciated if those involved she some light.

[intexasatthe moment]

Good points LondonMix .

It all seems so vague ,which in my book means open to manipulation .

I hadn't realised Habs want 100% of the site ? Surely not ,do you mean 100% of the bit that's earmarked for the school ?

James has clarified in the past the percentage of the site that would be used for a school ,I remember him reassuring another poster that there was plenty of space left for Health provision .

[James Barber]

Hi LondonMix,

The EFA came within a whisker of not buying the former East Dulwich Police station for the Harris East Dulwich free primary school. It cost ?6M because it was valued, despite previous use being community use D1, for residetnial properties.

This gives us a marker that the 18,000m2 of land on the hopsital site for residential use would cost circa ?40-50M vs. the current book value of ?12M. I doubt the EFA would spend ?40-50M just for thel and. I suspect NHS Property would offer a proportion of the site at D1 use but try and keep as much as possible for residential use.

We'll hear calls of Sardine Academy again when the land for more space is available but planning policy has encouraged it not to be used for the best possible sized school.

So I hope the Charter East Dulwich joins us in lobbying the council to radically amend Southwark Councils Dulwich Hospital planning guidance.

[intexasatthe moment]

Thanks for that info James .

Could you clarify the position about how much of the site Habs feels it needs ?

And am I right in thinking Lord Nash could override an EFA decision ?

" We'll hear calls of Sardine Academy " - how dare people people say things like that !

[LondonMix]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I hadn't realised Habs want 100% of the site ?

> Surely not ,do you mean 100% of the bit that's

> earmarked for the school ?

> James has clarified in the past the percentage of

> the site that would be used for a school ,I

> remember him reassuring another poster that there

> was plenty of space left for Health provision .

No, 100% of the site that the NHS will sell off. The NHS are keeping the portion they need for continued health provision on site. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

James, thanks for the clarification though I am still not sure that the higher valuation precludes the EFA from acquiring the school site based on what you've said. Practically speaking, as a tax payer, I don't care as its money moving between one government body to another and is entirely neutral from a citizen's point of view.