Haberdashers' East Dulwich - 751 families supporting

[LondonMix]

All of them use ability bands combined with distance ranking within the ability bands.

While some use slightly different bands and Kingsdale in addition to distance allocates some places by lottery, all of these schools through banding extend both the geographic reach and ability mix of their schools.

A new Habs school could try to align itself with the banding system of the Harris schools to coordinate. As the school does not yet exist, it can determine what is appropriate in this specific local context.

[intexasatthe moment]

My understanding is that Harris reference their bands to national ability ,so that a certain score on the NVF test they use would equate to a particular band .

My understanding of Habs is that they rank each years cohort that have applied for the school in question .

Kingsdale's system I find hard to understand but has scholarships thrown into the mix of banding and lottery . Do they allocate by distance as well ?

Habs didn't co ordinate it's banding system with that used throughout Lewisham so they may be attached to their own system and won't necessarily align themselves with Harris .

Though it's all a little theoretical at present .

I must say I was very drawn to the nodal point method mentioned by Kristymac1's on the Charter School thread -

"No-one yet has mentioned the possibility of measuring distance/banding from a specific nodal point - the nodal point being measured from the point by where there is greatest need/black hole."

[Belle]

The nodal point has come up - certainly there were discussions about this at the Goose Green Fair on the Haberdasher's stand. I believe there will be opportunity to quiz Habs on this more at the public meeting, details of which will be announced shortly. Speaking as a steering group member (and indeed a parent who might fall into a secondary black hole) I can absolutely see the value of this approach.

[samstopit]

A nodal point for admissions to the east side of LL has got to be the fairest way of doing it if it's a school for ED families. Could have one nodal point at the hospital site and one elsewhere - that way families who live close to the site could still get in.

[simonethebeaver]

Habs Hatcham operates a sort of nodal point as admissions distance is measured from a spot between their two sites.

The public meeting is their first big opportunity to hear directly from the community (although senior staff were at the Goose Green Fair) and the steering group has always been clear that admissions will be a major issue for the community!

[LondonMix]

Your right. Kingsdale is pure lottery. Lets see what Habs propose.

Nodal points is an interesting idea. Most of the schools serving the area are East of LL already. The only co-ed option though is West of LL and it seems like co-ed is what most parents want at the moment.

[bawdy-nan]

Kingsdale is banded lottery with scholarship places too

[LondonMix]

yes, banded lottery but no distance and of course the scholarships.

[bonaome]

LONDONMIX said ....

>James, if Harris really desire to have the Nunhead primary on Harris Girls ED site, why haven't they put in a planning >application for it? They have had years to submit a plan for the council to assess and to date haven't made any real >effort to illustrate that the Harris ED Girls site is feasible for the Nunhead primary. Harris make it clear in their >letter that they may need to expand Harris Girls to help with secondary places in future as a reason not to put the >Nunhead primary there and only you seem to suggest they are actively petitioning for this location right now.

Absolutely right LondonMix

Edited as I forgot to quite the bit I though was right!

[bonaome]

What Harris actually say in their letter is this (comments in brackets mine)...

"Like many prospective primary parents, our preferred outcome would have been (PAST TENSE) to build on the grounds of Harris Girls? Academy ? but (HERE COME THE REASONS WHY THEY CAN'T) this would raise substantial planning issues because the land there is classified as Metropolitan Open Land and given the same level of protection as the green belt. In addition, of course, Southwark is currently asking its secondary schools whether they can expand to help meet some of the expected future shortfall of places."

That doesn't sound to me like building the new Nunhead Harris Primary on Harris Girls's site is even vaguely on the cards.

[James Barber]

Bromley Council (as have others) have granted planning permission in such circumstances.

Harris are very clear they'd like to build there.

The Council leader Councillor Peter John has agreed to asking council officials to try finding an alternative site to the Dulwich Hospital for Harris Nunhead and would prefer an alternative to the Girls Academy site. But nothing is ruled in or out at this stage. (apologies Ive not dug the email from him out and thisis from memory - I will edit this later when I have).

[intexasatthe moment]

Southwark could make a recommendation for building on MOL but the Mayor and the relevant sec of state decide .

The last time S'wark made a recommendation to approve building on this site it was rejected and they had to send in more arguments etc before it was accepted .

So it's not as simple as saying S'wark should grant planning permission .

[LondonMix]

Exactly, if Harris's only planning scheme for a primary on the Harris ED Girls site requires building on Metropolitan Open Land, then the Mayor and Secretary of State will have to grant approval in addition to Southwark.

Given that the current official projections show no need for a new two form primary (now that Ivydale is expanding) building on the equivalent of green belt land is very unlikely to be deemed necessary by the government and I would personally oppose it as a terrible use of green space.

Either Harris needs to find a viable site in Nunhead and Southwark should suspend its plans to expand Ivydale or if no suitable site exists in Nunhead, Harris should NOT build a new primary school and allow Ivydale's expansion to go ahead to meet the local shortage.

Both the expansion and a new Nunhead primary are not necessary and would represent a terrible use of tax payer money and limited land resources. The idea that a solution to this fiasco is building another primary in Dulwich which has no need, potentially reducing the facilities for a much needed secondary school is appalling on so many levels.

[Miacis]

Apologies if this has been covered earlier but why do askes want to operate their own banding system?

[Soulking]

Another question, something mentioned earlier, why would banding with distance compared with distance alone result in a wider catchment area? Would it not average out to the same thing across bands, with some bands less and some more? Or maybe there is something I'm missing?

[Bellenden Belle]

Soulking - in areas like London good schools create their own catchment area through house prices that are prohibitive to disadvantaged families. Those same families are likely to have children who are achieving higher educational results than those in poorer areas, just because they have access to better resources and may well have better educated parents more able to support them. Distance alone just creates middle class self selection.

The system isn't without flaws - it still won't help the bright child who lives miles away. But it means the intake will definitely be truly comprehensive in terms of pupils' ability. But the more schools that adopted that system in an area the fairer education would become.

[edanna]

This makes sense BB though it must be mitigated by having housing nearby that you can't buy into ie only available to council tenants.

[Soulking]

Right, got it. So if you make the assumption that because the area around dulwich hospital site is relatively expensive, then children will more likely end up in the higher bands, then this will make the furthest distance for those bands less than if you use a distance based criteria alone. So if you are in se15, or on the wrong side of east dulwich (me!), and you believe your child might end up in the higher band, you will then actually have less chance of getting in (if compared to distance alone).

However, I do recognise some of the arguments for using bands, I just don't think it will help some of those posting on this forum saying they would have more chance with a banding + distance based system.

[samstopit]

Banding + nodal point on the 'wrong' side of ED would help.

[Bellenden Belle]

Precisely. But if all schools adopted the system then it wouldn't make such a difference - such a system also uplifts schools in areas of high deprivation.

The nodal point seems to be a very interesting development which also makes a lot of sense.

Soulking Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Right, got it. So if you make the assumption that

> because the area around dulwich hospital site is

> relatively expensive, then children will more

> likely end up in the higher bands, then this will

> make the furthest distance for those bands less

> than if you use a distance based criteria alone.

> So if you are in se15, or on the wrong side of

> east dulwich (me!), and you believe your child

> might end up in the higher band, you will then

> actually have less chance of getting in (if

> compared to distance alone).

> However, I do recognise some of the arguments for

> using bands, I just don't think it will help some

> of those posting on this forum saying they would

> have more chance with a banding + distance based

> system.

[grabot]

I'm a bit lost on this one. The op concerned a new school for East Dulwich. So is this a new school for Peckham or East Dulwich? If the scope has fundamentally changed should the selection process be reset and restarted?

[samstopit]

Edited because posted on wrong thread.

[samstopit]

Grabot what makes you think it's a school for Peckham? Clearly there is a part of ED which borders Peckham and is becoming one and the same ... The area which needs a co-ed secondary is arguably the area to the east of LL which is outside the charter catchment.

[LondonMix]

Grobot, given that people in the South of ED (SE22) go to Sydenham Girls and Forest Hill Boys, the idea that some people in SE15 near the border of ED would attend the new school is totally normal. The Charter school is in SE24, which is Herne Hill (the North Dulwich Triangle section, that borders the village) and serves, SE21 and SE22 amongst other areas.

To give you all some perspective on the new school:

The Charter's catchment is currently 1 mile safe walking (which equates to less than a mile as the crow flies).

If the new Dulwich school uses distance alone as the crow flies and its catchment circa 1 mile (this should be very likely as the creation of a new school will expand the catchment of all of the local schools), the new school located at Dulwich Hospital would admit students from all of ED (up to Dulwich Common), all of the Peckham Rye area all the way down to the A202, and parts of Camberwell, Brixton, Nunhead as well of course, Dulwich Village and Herne Hill.

Here is a map on Rightmove with a one mile radius from Dulwich Hospital's postcode.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/map.html?locationIdentifier=POSTCODE%5E1702265&insId=1&radius=1.0&includeSSTC=true&_includeSSTC=on

I don't think anyone who reads this forum should be panicking that their child won't be served by this new school. Picking the right admission policy for the school should therefore focus on what the best policy is to serve the community given the policies of existing local schools, social equality, making it comprehensive etc.

Also, there is not a shortage of schools to the East of LL. ED Harris boys and Girls both are to the East. What there is a lack of are co-ed schools that serve the area to the East of LL. However, the new school, whatever its admission policy will almost certainly capture every resident of ED as well as many from other areas.

[grabot]

Thanks LondonMix. To me that circle seems to represent a potentially sensible criterion without any need for further embellishment.