Haberdashers' East Dulwich - 751 families supporting

[intexasatthe moment]

More to the point I guess - do you know what role the Southwark Admissions Forum plays in schools admissions policies ?

My understanding is that LA's have admissions forums but I'm not really clear on their remit or actual influence . Is it just a talking shop attended by some/all reps from Southwark schools ( I'm interested in secondary schools here ) ? Does Southwark have one ,what does it do ?

There didn't seem to be much involvement in the 12 year wrangle over exactly what defined a safe walking route in The Charter's admission policy so I'm assuming that their role in overseeing how stated policies operate in practice is limited ?

Perhaps this should be a subject for a seperate thread ,but I'm raising it here because I think there is a tendency when discussing individual schools or potential schools to focus narrowly on that school and not to be aware of the wider implications -on public spending ,other schools ,longer term effects ,and the effect on families now and in the future who are applying for secondary school places .

[LondonMix]

Ultimately the Secretary of State which takes advice from the Office of the Schools Adjudicator has the ability to enforce agreed arrangements. The Office of the Schools Adjudicator is the body that holds up appeals made against both LA maintained schools as well as Academies though the Local Government Ombudsman also has jurisdiction of maladministration of stated government policies when LA schools are involved. For Academies, the OSA makes a formal recommendation to the Secretary of State who is vested with the final decision following their analysis and recommendation.

As you can read in the official document below, the Southwark LA actually formally supported Charter?s policy (they went as far as providing written support for the school during the appeals process). Charter was not a case of a hapless LA not being able to influence or change policy they didn?t like?they were supportive of Charter?s position. Their support is hardly suprising given that the policy has been in place since the school first opened as an LA school in 2000 and was in fact LA policy maintained by the school post conversion in 2010. The first appeals from parents regarding the policy date back to when it was still being run by the LA...

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9GB1PQuo9iAODYyYzZiMWEtYzEzYS00Y2U3LWE4M2MtNTJiMzhiNjc5YzZl/edit?usp=drive_web&pli=1

The School Admission Forum (which is independent of the LA) reviews policies set by both LAs and Academies to ensure fairness and equity. When it disagrees with a policy (i.e. believes it contravenes the national code) it can refer the matter to the Office of the Schools Adjudicator mentioned above for both LA schools and academies. Southwark (in fact all authorities) have to have forums by law as they are statutory oversight bodies.

If you are genuinely interested in the coordination requirements and the role of various bodies, the document below provides a detailed overview. Academies (as part of their funding arrangements) ?must? regard advice provided by their Admission Forum.

https://www.education.gov.uk/consultations/downloadableDocs/6757-SchoolAdmissionsCode.pdf

Edited for lots of typos and for clarity!

[Bumpkin]

I didn't get to talk to either of the stands at the fair, but second hand heard that if Charter won the bid, it would mean that the kids on both sites would have access to their playing fields (via a footbridge from the hospital site). Is that true? How would Haberdashers address this as the actual space for the new school isn't that large and from my uninformed guessing could end up rather like Harris boys with very little outdoor space.

[St Johns PTFA]

Deleted as logged in as wrong user.

[samstopit]

Charter, as far as I'm aware, share their playing fields and sports facilities with other nearby private schools. I'm not sure how a footbridge would work. Interesting idea.

The Dulwich hospital site is huge. I agree it's very important that there should be ample space for playing fields and other sports - eg a swimming pool.

[LondonMix]

Interesting. Did both schools discuss how they would provide supporting facilities? If so, it would be very interesting to hear from the steering committee what was discussed for sports and the performing arts as well as academics facilities.

It would be great if the Charter could create a complementary set of facilities to their existing school that could be shared by all students at both schools.

[intexasatthe moment]

LondonMix - I have read the info in both your links before . The latter when I was attempting to understand what Admissions Forums do and are supposed to do .

Having looked again at both links it seems to me that Admissions Forums have various obligations - some that they must follow and some that they should .

They play an important role "in ensuring that school admission arrangements are fair and comply with admission law and the requirements of this Code " . But I'm not sure that the Southwark Admissions Forum has done this - though I could be wrong .

Don't year 6 pupils have to sit banding tests at more than one school - Kingsdale and Harris for example ? ( I could be wrong )

The code says this "Where a number of schools in an area band, they must use a common test, such as the results of QCA Year 5 optional tests conducted in primary schools, to ensure that children are not required to take more than one test."

Also it seems clear that the Admissions Forum should have taken action over how The Charter were implementing their admissions policy .

" Enforcing the Code

9. the Admission Forum have important powers under Section 90 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 to refer the admission arrangements to the Adjudicator where the admission authority concerned fails to comply with the mandatory provisions of this Code, or where they fail to follow its guidelines "

You say "As you can read in the official document below, the Southwark LA actually formally supported Charter?s policy " . This may be so ,and is worrying ,but the only reference to Southwark's position in the link you posted was this

The LA's response indicated that it did not consider the School was in breach of the code .Southwark is not the admissions authority for any secondary school in the area and ,for it's primary school's ,uses the " straight line " method of calculating proximity .It is , therefore not in a good position to comment on the technical aspects of the case ."

But maybe you're referring to other documents or I've missed something .

However with the possibilty of another school in the area with banding as an admissions policy and with a history of what seems to me an Admissions Forum that wasn't quite on top of it's game ( as presumably the Lewisham one wasn't either ,hence them having Habs not using the same banding exam as other Lewisham schools ) it would be good to have clarification on how the Southwark Admission forum sees its role . I thought James as a key person in this campaign might provide this information .

Finally ,as I seem now to be responding to your individual queries LondonMix and as I detect a somewhat hostile tone towards me in your posts - would it be better to continue trying to justify myself to you by PM ?

[intexasatthe moment]

Samstopit - as I understand it only part of the Dulwich Hospital site is to be used for the proposed school .

[LondonMix]

I'm not hostile at all and there is no need to PM me. I actually agree with you that the Southwark forum failed in the case of Charter both while the school was an LA maintained school and in its current form as an academy.

I also didn't ask you any questions- I just posted links with the information you asked for- so not sure what individual queries you are referring to?

[intexasatthe moment]

" You so realise it is Lewisham council that set the admission policy.."

" what exactly are you trying to add to this discussion about a new school in the area and the choice between Charter and Hatcham? "

" Do you think this means they aren't inclusive, are a poor choice for this area? "

"Therefore complaining about Hatcham's admissions policy and wishing the council could set it, in this specific instance is totally illogical. "

Last was not a question but as it referred to a complaint I hadn't made and used it to conclude that I was being totally illogical I felt the need to respond -)

[LondonMix]

I thought you meant my recent post not the one from several days ago. You already responded and I haven't asked you anything else since then hence my confusion. We both have also engaged with other posters in between.

[intexasatthe moment]

"I just posted links with the information you asked for- "

I didn't ask for a link to gov guidance on Admissions Forums ,I've already read this . My problem is relating that guidance to the reality ,which is why I posed the question to James . He's a local politician ,campaigning for a new school and I hoped he could tell me how in practice the Admission Forum works .

I also wasn't asking for any information about the issues regarding the safe walking distance policy at The Charter . I read all this at the time . Have to confess though that your conclusion that it "was not a case of a hapless LA not being able to influence or change policy they didn?t like?they were supportive of Charter?s position ." differs from my reading of the document .

[James Barber]

Thanks LondonMix about admissions.

Hi Bumpkin, I can't imagine a new foot bridge and the Green Dale footbridge would mean crossing JAGS land. That's quite an assumption being made about JAGS especially with children safe guarding these days.

HI LondonMix, Sports facilities and other facilities have been discussed. We have made it very clear we'd expect sports halls, etc to be located so they can easily be opened for the local community out of school hours.

Hi ITATM, we're proposing 2/3rds of the hospital site be used for a new secondary school with remaining third being the size the local health organisations have said they need.

[LondonMix]

ITATM- I realise you posted some additional questions regarding Lewisham and disagree with some of my comments on Southwark. I hope the below provides some clarification for you (or for others)

The code in 2006 said there had to be one test in an area when banding is used as you have quoted. However, the updated code in 2010 changed this to 'should' (so no longer mandatory) and the most recent update in 2012 removed reference to a preference for a single test all together. Given it is not mandatory, neither Hatcham nor Lewisham's admission forum are I n breach of the current code by allowing the Hatcham non verbal reasoning test.

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/schools_admission_code.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/275598/school_admissions_code_1_february_2012.pdf

Regarding reference to Southwark LA:

In the documents posted above you can see that the LA has a statutory obligation to refer breaches of the code to the Adjudicator for schools in its Authority that operate their own admission authorities (like Charter)-see clause 3.2 in the 2012 code but similar clauses have existed in the 2010 and 2006 versions. The parents who took part in the efforts to change Charter's admission have come out and said publicly that neither Southwark LA nor Southwark Admission Forum would refer the matter to the Adjudicator. Hence my comment about them not being hapless victims.

The LA's role comes in addition to the role and responsibilities of the Admission Forum.

Given the legal responsibility of Southwark LA to report these types of issues to the Adjudicator the fact that they did nothing when made aware of the issue to me is institutional failure as they were vested with the power and responsibility to affect change. I hope this is because it was the LA's own policy for years and they were therefore reluctant to be critical rather than evidence of a deeper incompetence within the LA.

Having read a bit last night it seems that Gove recently removed the requirement for Admission Forums. Many areas still have them (like Lewisham) but in their absence 100 percent of the legal responsibility to report breaches now sits with the LA when no Forum exists.

Does anyone know what the current state of Southwark's forum is?

[LondonMix]

Also does anyone involved with the steering committee know why Hatcham uses 'fair banding'? It seems an odd choice when the other schools use local banding so I'm curious what the rationale is and if they have a preference for how admissions would work at the proposed new school.

Also, were any specifics discussed regarding facilities and is there scope for sharing grounds with the private schools? I believe sharing helps the local private schools fulfil their charitable requirements. Is that right?

[Belle]

Regarding the point about playing fields: provision of sports facilities for us on the parent steering group was a priority when we were looking at providers. The proposal is that there would be facilities on site, as well as the use of the existing Hatcham College playing fields, which are extensive and located within Southwark, a short (school) bus ride away.

[intexasatthe moment]

Hi LondonMix - I really do think you and I are mainly having a conversation that no one else is interested in and that some of what we are discussing would be better dealt with by PM . If anyone wants to endorse this sentiment please feel free !

Until then - it's obviously a shame that the current code puts less/no emphasis on schools co operating in an effort to have children in an area take only one banding test . I'm sure we all want as little stress as poss for the secondary transfer . I guess it was envisaged that this was the kind of issue that an Admissions Forum could try and resolve . I suppose with Free Schools and the increasing variety of admission policies we shouldn't be surprised that there is a lessening of attempt at coherence/unity - can't think of the right word .

I do see what are you saying about Southwark ( both the LA and the admissions forum ) regarding the safe walking distance debacle .You clearly attribute their lack of action not as weakness but a desire to support the school - hope I've got your view right . We don't know what the reasons were behind the failure to refer the matter ,but does it really matter ? Weak or determined it meant that a group of parents had to mount an exhausting campaign to get the school to correctly implement it's admission policy .

Habs unwillingness to fully embrace Lewishams banding system ,the fact that parents had to mount their own challenge in Southwark demonstrate how much power schools now have - despite what is specified ,advised or mandated in various codes . The odds seem stacked against the parent if the recourse to failure to respect the code or use the power granted is for parents to have to mount a challenge themselves .

I see that you too are now asking for information about the admission forum for Southwark . It would be good to know if one will continue to exist and what it considers its remit to be . ( As distinct from what is laid down by Parliament )

And like you I'd be interested to know more about the type of admissions policies that The Charter and Habs suggested they'd use when having discussions with the steering group .

[tomskip]

I'm interested in all of this, so please keep it public if you can bear to. Everything you say makes absolute sense to me ITATM.

[LondonMix]

Hi ITATM- I agree one test to reduce stress should be the aim. However, without more information I don't automatically presume anything about Lewisham's arrangements. There may be very good reasons for the current arrangements that the LA, the Admission Forum and Hatcham have agreed and are all happy is the best possible situation. I know Hatcham only uses one banding test for all it's schools in its Federation and that might play its part. I do find it odd that Hatcham use fair banding which is why I query it. But again, without background, I won't presume or suggest there is any problem. I think it's unfair to do so and pre-mature to suggest the coordination efforts there are failing in anyway. I actually think Lewisham has exercised significant coordination of admissions in its area and have not been shy about threatening schools that they would be brought to the OSA for non-compliance.

Regarding the historical Charter admission case, I find your position hard to understand and I think the detail matters a lot from a policy perspective (which seems to be what you are trying to discuss more than the specific schools). The Charter school was no more powerful post conversion in 2010 than it was as an LA school between 2000 and 2010 (specifically regarding its ability to not administer it's stated policy). The parents had to mount their own campaign only because both the LA and the Admission Forum failed to use their power to take the issue to the adjudicator. When the school was an LA school and appeals against the admission policy were first mounted, the Southwark Admission Forum should have taken the LA run Charter school to the Adjudicator way back then. This was a 12 year failing on the part of Southwark as an institution. Therefore, Southwark, rather than the current rules and laws need to be taken to task in this particular instance. Why the LA administered the clearly unjust admission policy for 10 years when they were in total control is a serious concern in itself.

Some LAs and Admission forums will be better than others. I actually think current govt policy is wrong in assuming free schools in all instances are a solution and some free schools are not great. But equally, some LAs are poor for reasons entirely to do with themselves.

Therefore, this discussion for me isn't really about defending one or the other system but really learning about what both potential ED schools have to offer and raising questions in a fair and balanced way.

[intexasatthe moment]

I agree with an awful lot of what you say LondonMix - I agree that someone or some organisation should have tried to resolve the admissions difficulties at the Charter many years ago .It continued to remain unaddressed under old regulations ,school status and new . The fact that the only way the issue was resolved was for parents to take action 2 years ago makes me think that both the old regulations and the new were able to be disregarded by the powers that be - Southwark LA and the admissions forum - makes me think that there existed and still exists an inadequacy . It doesn't lead me to think that the current rules and laws are now sufficient to prevent similar things happening .

The fact that Habs are not onside with the Lewisham wide method of banding is just that . It's not a criticiscm of Habs ( I've already said that they may have perfectly good reasons for opting for the test they use ) or of Lewisham . But it is of interest because - to me anyway - it demonstrates that they have a certain independence of policy and because I wonder what the implications are if they sponsor a new school in Southwark .

I think many people think banding is a simple way of achieving a comprehensive intake for a school and perhaps don't realise that different forms of banding are used with differing effects on an intake . Personally I struggle getting my head round banding and always feel I'm missing something . Schools give very little information about banding on their websites and I think they could be more specific ,explain more .

This ,from the schools admission code ,is fairly clear I think

Banding

1.25 Pupil ability banding is a permitted form of selection29 used by some

admission authorities to ensure that the intake for a school includes a

proportionate spread of children of different abilities. Banding can be used to

produce an intake that is representative of:

a) the full range of ability of applicants for the school(s);

b) the range of ability of children in the local area; or

c) the national ability range.

I'm thinking that Lewisham are going for type b and that Habs are going for type a . Is that what you think LondonMix or am I barking up the wrong tree ?

( I also think that Harris go for c but that's just my reading )

Perhaps I'm overthinking things ,being pedantic . Perhaps it doesn't make much difference what type of banding is used or whether different types of banding co exist in an area . I think only someone with considerably greater numeracy skills than me would know . And even if they explained I probably still wouldn't understand . I just feel that organisations like Harris don't decide on a type of banding by chance * ,I'm sure it's a well researched decision and that it's chosen not just to achieve a mixed intake but also to increase the potential for good exam results .

I'd love to hear people's views - even if it's to say " yes ,we think you're being pedantic ,now shut up " !

* anymore than the colour co ordination on the front cover of Southwark's secondary school admission brochure !

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/downloads/download/2484/secondary_school_admissions

[DuncanW]

"Hi LondonMix - I really do think you and I are mainly having a conversation that no one else is interested in and that some of what we are discussing would be better dealt with by PM . If anyone wants to endorse this sentiment please feel free "

Hear hear! - I am following this thread as I have a (vested) interest in the new school. I'd like my children to have a decent local secondary school to go to. I'm sure either Charter or HA could provide that so would be happy with either. HA seem to have the lead so good luck to them. I am not interested in endless bickering about the finer points of the admissions criteria.

edited for typo

[samstopit]

What DuncanW said.

[intexasatthe moment]

DuncanW and samstopit - good on you for responding .

Can't promise no further posts at all from me ,but do feel I've got dragged into an endless back and forth debate with LondonMix which I'm not sure is very illuminating for many . Though I guess I think some of the finer points regarding admissions are worth airing so that people don't aren't surprised with what they end up with .

But I'll desist .

By the way - I too have a vested interest in secondary schools in Southwark and echo the sentiment that either Habs or Charter would be fine to run a school .

[James Barber]

Next week we'll transfer the details of all the supporters we've collected to the Haberdasher's Aske's Federation.

We've collected 575 and Habs over 70 so far. SO we're well over 600 supporters for a new secondary school.

Thanks for everyones support. And people can still register via www.newschool.org.uk for another week.

[Mugglesworth]

Haberdasher Aske's (HAFT) has found its way onto page 30 of Private Eye this week but not in a good way. Its published accounts raise some questions about "sound financial management" that should be answered before getting too gung ho about expansion into ED. All in the public domain.