Haberdashers' East Dulwich - 751 families supporting

[Otta]

As I've just posted on the other thread, neither party has made any announcement about what their admissions policy would be for a new school. Just because they do something in an existing school (in a different borough in the case of Haberdashers) doesn't necessarily mean that's how things would be done at the new school.

[mariababe]

Sillwoman - I do get what your trying to say, but I think you need to understand what banding actually means

For example- school has 4 bands - based on a test marked out of 100 (I stress its a basic example)

Results out of 100 -

band A - 80 - 100

band B - 60 - 80

band C - 40 - 60

band D - less than 40

So then its based on distance from school - each band has 25 places (total 100)

Those in band D have up to 25 places just like the clever clogs in band A, this what makes it a fair admissions policy. If band D only have 25 applicants then they will all get a place regardless of address, if they have 26 or more then those closest to the school will get the places.

Does this explain things? Its a very basic example of what banding means, but when places are over subscribed there has to be a cut off, that's when distance comes in.

So when you say cream from band D, it doesn't make any sense as they are worst results.

[intexasatthe moment]

The first post on the " New Haberdashers Aske's school etc " was ammended after the announcement of the chosen sponsor to include a Q & A as to the criteria used to chose between Hab's and Charter . I had asked ,several times if we could be told the criteria to be used and it seems odd to draw up and publish a list only after the choice had been made .

However ...It includes this statement " Has a fair and transparent admissions process. (Banding and distance.) "

I assume this means that one of the criteria to be met was a school that would operate an admissions policy which was based on banding with places within bands allocated as per distance . So that would suggest that if Habs go ahead they will implement their banding and admissions policy and that not having this policy was one of the reasons ( made known after the fact ) why Charter were ruled out .

So I think we do know what admissions policy Habs will use if they go ahead . Unless they've told the steering group they'll satisfy that criteria but are planning to do something else . Which I can't see .

[intexasatthe moment]

I suppose the problem might be that the proposed new Habs school and The Charter are geographically close .

The admissions policy for a new Habs could/ ? would put them in competition for the brightest kids .

Does anyone know by the way why Habs operate a banding system which differs from other secondary schools in Lewisham . My understanding is that Lewisham schools have 5 bands based on school sats results but that Habs have their own test ( non verbal ) and 9 bands . And a percentage allocated as music scholarships ?

[Otta]

RE The music thing, I know some people view it as elitist (and I see their point), but I think it's great that kids with a gift for music have a chance to go somewhere that will nurture that gift. Music is my thing so I am totally biased, but unless parents can afford private schools, lots of kids end up in schools where music really is an afterthought.

I will always be grateful for my musical education at Aske's (not that they had the special music places back then).

[James Barber]

Hi ITATM,

The parents steering group agreed criteria over several meetings and a working party between meetings. We shared the criteria with both schools and asked them to tell us how they fulfiled that criteria. We then applied that criteria.

We then published our take on it after people repeatedly asked what our thinking was when it was clear The Charter School also didnt accept our decision. I personally would have preferred that we hadn't felt the need to publish it. But we are where we are.

Not sure how you can suggested Haberdashers' cream talented children when they have a banding system to ensure a comprehensive intake. They have taken on failing primary and secondary schools in really disadvantaged areas. This doesnt look to me as a federation looking for easy success.

Hi Sillywoman,

Yes The Charter School has been a success which is impressive after the William Penn years. They have been very protective of this hence the unfortunate Champion Hill Estate admissions appeals that Charter fought tooth and nail to avoid admitting children from a nearby area. It will take a number of years before that part of our community feel the Charter school operated a fair admission policy. It takes a number of years for schools when they changed to be fully recognised for making change happen for the better.

[Otta]

James Barber Wrote:

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> I personally would have preferred that we hadn't felt the need to publish it.

And this James is where I believe you are going wrong. In 2014 transparancy is a bloody must! And it protects you from morons accusing you of this and that, that should be obvious.

I think you've done great work on this, but in processes like this everything should be recorded and open.

[sillywoman]

Yes, I get the banding thing. But OVERALL the school that creamed off the top 10% within the bands would be getting the most academic set from the whole cohort that they're being offered. Don't consider individual band - look at the overall intake. Does that make sense?

[Otta]

Surely every school (that uses banding) will try to do this to an extent. We live in a horrible results driven culture, and schools are very aware of this when they look at their budgets. But they can only cream off from those that actually apply to go there.

I very much doubt that Haberdashers are any worse than anyone else for this, it's just that they have a good rep, so lots of people want to go there meaning they get more to chose from.

[James Barber]

No I'm afraid that doesnt make sense sillywoman. Banding works by selecting the closest child based on distance from the school in each band. You can't cream if you operate such an admissions policy.

[intexasatthe moment]

James - why on earth would you want to keep the criteria used to compare sponsors a secret ? I just don't understand that ,can you explain ?

I've not said that Habs are creaming talented children - where did you get that from ? Was it because I asked if anyone knew the rationale behind Habs opting for a different banding system than the one used by other Lewisham schools ? Or because I said that being geographically close to The Charter ( if this all goes ahead ) they'd be in competition for talented children ?

[sillywoman]

Well actually, my explanation does make sense James, but I think what you mean is that it's not the way that banding, as operated by Lewisham or Habadashers (you don't state by whom) actually works. As an explanation of how Habs allocated within their bands was what I was after and asking for in my first post, I am content to accept your assurance that what I had heard regarding the how their banding system worked wasn't the reality. So, they allocate on distance within the bands, not any other criteria. Am happy that the allocation will be fair then. :)

[taper]

Five years ago, Southwark parents would have fallen to the floor weeping tears of joy that Haberdasher's were prepared to open a school in Southwark. So stop pissing and moaning and thank James Barber and co for their gargantuan and selfless efforts. Instead of a crappy half arsed GP surgery we're about to get a top notch secondary school.

[sophiesofa]

taper Wrote:

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> a top notch secondary school.

That's the bit that's up for debate. One of their schools has an ofsted rating of 'requires improvement' so not top notch at all. Yes Hatcham is top notch, I think it's either good or outsanding.

James barber has been fantastic in pushing a secondary school froward, I don't think anyone can dispute that. He should be thanked for all of his efforts.

[Otta]

Surely lots of brand new schools require improvement. I'd have thought it natural for a school to take a few years to settle.

[samstopit]

Otta, Knights Academy isn't a new school, it was formerly known as Malory school, which had a lot of problems. Haberdashers took it on with the intention of turning it around. A lot of progress has been made but the behaviour of a small number of students is still disrupting the school.

I think it's impressive that Haberdashers have taken such a school on. It will of course take time to turn it around but they have already made a significant start. It's their willingness to do it that I appreciate.

[sophiesofa]

Otta Wrote:

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> Surely lots of brand new schools require

> improvement. I'd have thought it natural for a

> school to take a few years to settle.

I think they took it over quite a while ago - maybe around 6 years. They got it to good but since it has declined to requires improvement.

[sophiesofa]

I just checked the ofsted for knights and it actually got an 'inadequate' overall not requires improvement. The lowest rating you can get.

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/filedownloading/?id=2344321&type=1&refer=0

[samstopit]

I think James has said somewhere in this thread that Haberdashers plan to have Knights back to 'good' by June which is why the final decision as to whether to be the provider for the new secondary school will be taken in June. If knights is still in trouble they will need to concentrate on that.

In the Q&A at the start of this thread the history with knights academy is explained in more detail. The experience of taking on troubled schools and the ethos of bringing high standards of education to a wider community is one of the reasons that Haberdashers were chosen as a provider by the steering group.

I agree the knights ofsted is worrying but I remain impressed that Haberdashers agreed to take on such a challenge.

[sophiesofa]

It definitely is easier to start a new school than try and turn around a failing one. You can't expect pupils and staff to suddenly be 'good' just because they have a new uniform/building/school name.

[espelli]

Knights Academy opened in 2005. http://www.haaf.org.uk/CEOs-Welcome Malory was a tough school and in some ways it is reassuring that Askes didn't use the methods for dramatically improving schools that some academy chains are reported to use but I would think that they would be putting all their energies into improving a school they have run for almost ten years and making sure that the re build of the old Monson Primary site opens so that those children can move out of their temp accommodation on the Hatcham site.

[James Barber]

This coming Sunday is the Dulwich Festival Goose Green Fair from 11am to 4pm.

The East Dulwich Secondary School Campaign will have a gazebo there. The campaign steering group will be there along with Habderdashers? Aske?s Federation staff and some of their year 9 prefects as ambassadors.

I really hope you can come along and say hi, ask searching questions about what we and Haberdashers are proposing, and how that fits with your expectations for a great new school to join the area's other great schools.

And if anyone can help us make this happen please do get in touch. We can never have too much help. Even just helping blow up balloons from 10am!

[Otta]

I'm laughing at the thought of Charter pitching a tent right in front of your gazebo.

Think this is a very good move.

[Biped1]

I'm glad you find it funny. Some people think that turning education into a market isn't so funny. Academy chains advertising at fairs and using students to do so? Hmmm

[Belle]

It's not advertising, it's providing information. People have got questions, as evidenced on here - we are hoping that between us (the steering group) and Haberdasher's, we can answer those questions. Several posters have said they'd like to see open-ness - we are responding to that.