Haberdashers' East Dulwich - 751 families supporting

[intexasatthe moment]

I'm not sure I can get my head round it either .....but it does seem that if you take the numbers of places offered to external applicants ( ie total number less places going to primary school transfers ) the band sizes are almost equal .

18 , 18 , 17 ,19 ,17 ,20 ,19 ,19 ,19 ,

And yes it does look like a large nos transferring from the primary school are in the higher bands - 15 in band 1 and 10 in band 2 .

[bornagain]

And yes it does look like a large nos transferring from the primary school are in the higher bands - 15 in band 1 and 10 in band 2 .

That's interesting - so students who transfer from the linked primary is not included in the fair banding - that doesn't seem that fair to me. Given that this is the trend - to have primaries attached to secondaries (Harris Peckham is another like this) is it a loop hole that needs to be looked at?

[intexasatthe moment]

I'm not sure what to think about this .

I don't like the idea of all through schools - just feel that kids sometimes need a fresh start and that their options to go elsewhere will be diminishing with this trend . Also feels a bit like indoctrination - Pimlico Academy that I'm a little familar with and follow are very keen on a particular American curriculum following ED Hirsch and they start young with them at primary . Reminds me of that Jesuit thing - give me a boy at 7 ..... .Except now it's a child at 4 or 5 .http://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/oct/15/hirsch-core-knowledge-curriculum-review

I digress . Could not including the primary transfer pupils in the banded places available be fairer ? Means all external candidates are competing on a level playing field ? But obvioulsly limits amount of places available and presumably shifts the whole " buying into the area " tactic down to primary school level .

What a nightmare . What a mistake that we've gone down this route of Academys ,Free Schools and not put the money poured into them to better use in improving LA ( and in my dream world inner london authority ) schools .

[James Barber]

Hi stateeducation,

I initiated a campaign for a new East Dulwich secondary school during 2013. With 20 local parents we compared The Charter School offering with Haberdashers' Aske's offering. We considered the latter to be a better offering for East Dulwich. I'm sorry this has made The charter School so unhappy that they weren't willing to accept our decision to go with Haberdashers' and have decided to launch their own campaign. It complicates things for both groups and will involve at least one party incurring significant expense with nothing to show for it.

Both campaigns are reliant on the Right to Contest for 2/3rd of the Dulwich hospital site being successful. I submitted on behalf of the campaign for a new ED secondary school I initiated.

Hi ITATM, bornagain,

Their is no proposal for our new secondary school to be anything other than a secondary school. It would be banding and within banding distance.

[mariababe]

Oh my can't believe I agree with your post texas..but I agree its a nightmare!!!

Welcome back state we have missed your cheery posts

I'm not sure I agree with feeder primary's either and will let HABS know this, I expect they have a good reason for it...

[bornagain]

What a nightmare . What a mistake that we've gone down this route of Academys ,Free Schools and not put the money poured into them to better use in improving LA ( and in my dream world inner london authority ) schools .

Spot on as usual, intexas ;)

[James Barber]

Hi Mariabab,

Lewisham Council asked them to take on a failing primary school and open primary schools. The space available for new primary school was on their existing secondary school sites.

Generally the Southwark secondary school heads I've met have issues with the kids they receive into their secondary schools. Hence why some have tried exerting more control by running feeder primary schools.

Habderdahsers' were interesting. They explained they'd seen dramatic improvement in primary school SAT scores but stable scores in non verbal reasoning scores used for banding.

[intexasatthe moment]

" They explained they'd seen dramatic improvement in primary school SAT scores but stable scores in non verbal reasoning scores used for banding. "

So no change in results of non verbal tests used to place pupils in bands ? But pupils transferring from the feeder primary school gain 25 out of 61 places in the top 2 bands . Even though their success rate in the banding tests remain stable ?

[bornagain]

'Habderdahsers' were interesting. They explained they'd seen dramatic improvement in primary school SAT scores but stable scores in non verbal reasoning scores used for banding.'

Isn't that because you can coach for SATs but not for non verbal reasoning? I'm assuming that banding tests will be non-verbal reasoning.

I understand that HA school if it happens in ED will have a different admissions model to Hatcham but still I'm not totally comfortable that the admissions outcome in their flagship school is not totally transparent.

ETA notice there is another thread advertising an all-through school for Peckham and Nunhead. This will increasingly put pressure on parents to find the 'right' school at 4/5yrs, what a nightmare! For all sorts of reasons I'm totally against all-through schools.

[bawdy-nan]

When you say "coach for SATS" isn't that, essentially, "teaching". My child is currently being "coached" for SATS in her lessons in school.

[bornagain]

What I mean is that some schools spend much of Yr 6 teaching to perform well for the SATs test (eg lots of test for practice).

Once they get to secondary, these primary SATs results are not considered important (in fact misleading) as you can't compare like with like across all the feeder primary schools. As far as I know secondary schools all do their own CATs test early in year 7 to set their own benchmark for their students future assessment.

edited for typos

[bawdy-nan]

yes, bornagain, that makes sense. The year 6 sats things are pretty awful - quite a lot of weeping going on despite the school doing pretty well, I think, at trying to make it feel ok and spending a lot of time doing other, lovely things. My daughter had a huge outburst of fury about them - roaring about why she had to do them and what was the point and how it made her feel awful (and she's someone who's doing well).

[Otta]

Stateeducation Wrote:

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> It is also true that Mr Barber is increasingly

> showing signs of anger and annoyance

So would I if I had to keep reading your posts.

[mariababe]

LoL Otta!

[Stateeducation]

Otta ..... Hush now

[Stateeducation]

Mr Barber and the steering group deserve credit for raising the issue around the need for a new ED school.

It seems strange then around this groups desire to publicly criticise Charter. It seems equally strange that some of the more vocal East Dulwich politicians do not seem to fully support their local schools, in more ways than one.

[edanna]

I know this point has already been made but James I think you need to change the title of this thread. With every gratitude for the time and enthusiasm from yourself and the steering committee you can't be certain that the many people who signed up to support your efforts to get a new ED secondary are actually in favour of Haberdashers - speaking for myself but I'm sure I'm not alone, I am in favour of the idea of a good co-ed non-faith secondary and still have an open mind on provider.

[bawdy-nan]

The thing is edanna is that "we" don't get to choose which school gets to set up the new free school or indeed, if any application will be accepted. That's a decision for the Dept Ed. The steering group selected HA as their choice after considering the options and will be working with them - hence the title of the thread, I suppose.

I've got no idea what the criteria are for the Dept Ed when deciding between rival bids.

[Scruffy Mummy]

Yes it's all up to the dept of education now. They will use their criteria and decide. I just hope that they pick a provider who can have it up and running by September 2016!

[281102]

James Barber Wrote:

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>

> The DfE may be influenced to some degree by the

> qunatity of support for a bid when two bids are

> compared.

James, I read with interest your assertion above. I had not realised that quantity of support for a bid may be taken into account in the eventual decision by the DofE between two proposed providers.

In light of this, if my vote of support is counted for one school bid over the other, then I unfortunately need to withdraw my support for the Haberdasher Aske's Federation school, as my preference between the two is for a new Charter school.

Please can you therefore amend the total in the subject header of this thread (from 551 down to 550), that I notice is constantly updated as posts are added. I presume you do this?

I will email you privately with my details for my name to be removed from your supporter database.

Thank you.

[James Barber]

Hi 281102,

Yes, the DfE may be influenced. Not sure 'may' is an assertion. Either way I will amend when I receive your email 281102. I'll amend the score taking into account the latest supporters.

Hi Scruffy Mummy,

Not quite up to the DfE yet. Applications have to be made. The site needs to be secured.

Hi bawdy-nan,

Well, yes and no. The DfE can only decide based on bids received. So if we weren't submitting the bids then the DfE would not get to decide. So we are all a critical part of this process. Whatever happen we need a new secondary school.

Hi edanna,

I've always been clear that I would seek support and if sufficient support was present then find a provider. I've stated repeatedly that if anyone doesn't think the provider we were going to choose was for them then to let me know and I'd log their withdrawal of support.

I could have taken a different approach as we did when no provider except Harris Federation were interested in supporting a free primary school bid before the support materialised. Once we had clear support providers who had refused were suddenly interested. But as we have sufficient Harris secondary schools already I took this riskier approach.

Hi stateeducation,

I'm sorry for any negativity about The Charter School. I regret this. Much has been in response to suggestions we hadn't considered their desire to be our provider fully, etc. We spent a lot of time and in my case holiday days making sure we did.

[James Barber]

Hi ITATM,

What do you mean the highest two bands?

Band 1 is the lowest ability band.

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> " They explained they'd seen dramatic improvement

> in primary school SAT scores but stable scores in

> non verbal reasoning scores used for banding. "

>

> So no change in results of non verbal tests used

> to place pupils in bands ? But pupils transferring

> from the feeder primary school gain 25 out of 61

> places in the top 2 bands . Even though their

> success rate in the banding tests remain stable ?

[Otta]

When did that change? It used to be 1 highest, 3 lowest.

[Otta]

Posted this on the other thread, so in the interests of fairness...

What I find really sad (and more than a little bit childish) is the putting down of Haberdashers / Charter by the supporters of either.

As most reasonable people have stated in the last couple of weeks, both are capable of opening a new school, and a new school is what the area needs.

Support your chosen side, fine. But don't try slinging mud at the other one because it basically makes you look like you belong at the new school in year 7.

[sillywoman]

mariababe Wrote:

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> I'm sorry sillywoman but that doesn't make any

> sense (plus I hate the term "I have heard")

>

> Anyway if they are creaming the top 10% from band

> 9 (lowest scores) how does that mean they are

> taking the highest abled child??

>

> No sense at all and definitely not sneaky

I'm sorry you don't like the way I speak Mariababe, I have 'heard' is a common phrase in the english language and it means exactly what it says. I've 'heard' it - not read or seen - so I was asking whether anyone has any concrete evidence that this is or isn't the case. In that context I believe 'I have heard' is entirely appropriate. Sorry that you hate it.

I'm not sure which part of my enquiry doesn't make sense to you so can't answer you properly, but I'll do my best. It makes a difference because: if it were true that haberdashers practiced creaming then they would be taking the most academically inclined in each banding across their intake population, therefore overall getting the children in each band who would be likeliest to get the best academic results. If a school that did this (lets call it school a) ) were to be physically placed next to, or in the immediate vicinity of, a school whose intake was purely based on distance (lets call it school b) ) then there would be a high risk that the academic kids in each band would go to school a), leaving the less academically inclined kids in each band to got o school b). School a) is likelier to get higher academic results and so, over time school b)'s results might be lower and so school a) would become more popular, school b) less so and could be perceived as less successful.

As someone who fought hard 15 years ago to get a good, co-ed, non faith, community comprehensive with a fair, distance based selection process for my children to attend, I would be greatly saddened to see this happen in my community and to the great community comprehensive we have here. The Charter has been a huge success. I would like to see the educational opportunities they offer to everyone living in their community offered to more of those in East Dulwich. I like fairness.