The Positive Birth Movement

[sillywoman]

I like tangents :D

[midivydale]

What would EDF be without tangents;)

X

[Saffron]

Kes Wrote:

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> So Sorry Saffron and SW - I've got myself all

> confused! Serves me right for reading this on my

> phone while I was at work!

On the Forum at work?!? You should be ashamed!!! Oh wait, I'm on the Forum at work too... (hangs head in shame over lunch at desk.)

>

>

> Saffron - yes it was the timing/scheduling

> comment:

>

> "in a straightforward vaginal birth, you lose the

> element of timing, i.e. the birth can't be

> scheduled. "

>

> I misunderstood you, to me it read as - with a

> c-section you can choose the most convenient time

> to have your baby, - with the implication that

> that is the only real benefit to a C/S and it is a

> pretty selfish one. I appreciate now that that

> isn't what you meant, but as someone who had an

> elective CS and has seen that sort of claim in the

> media many times, I'm clearly over-sensitive to it

> and was concerned that others would read it that

> way too.

>

I don't think that's being oversensitive FWIW. My comment was oblique. The way you read it is what it means to you, and your p.o.v. is as valid anyone's.

I think what I was trying to say was that (regarding acknowledging 'loss', as in giving up something in rites of passage) if someone's desire/choice from the outset is for a natural, unfettered birth, then she acknowledges that there's no controlling for timing. She has to accept that the baby comes when it comes, and that's not always in a manner that's timely for the mother or safest (36 hour labours, giving birth at 3am, or while her doula is stuck in traffic, or in a carpark etc). So mitigating risk with regards to timing isn't just about 'convenience'. Actually I think this element of the unknown in timing can be quietly terrifying to many first-time mothers, but it shouldn't stop women from being positive about attempting natural births.

But equally, I'm not anti-C-section either. I think there is probably more harm than good done by demonising C-sections and making them seem abhorrent as somehow less of birth than a vaginal birth. While it's true that there are risks and negative consequences associated with C-sections, these are relative to the background in which the pregnancy/labour is considered. For example, in a difficult birth foregoing an early C-section to attempt a vaginal delivery may result in the need of forceps delivery (with its own set of hazards), as once the baby is low in the uterus near delivery a late C-section becomes quite risky. Interestingly, I never noted C-sec and forceps discussed in relation to each other in my antenatal classes or in any of the pregnancy and labour books I read!

(And come to think of it, it seems a lot of literature on labour is very pro 'this' or anti 'that' Blimely, where's the middle ground? No wonder it can be a struggle to be both positive AND realistic about labour and beyond!)

> I really hope I've stopped being dim for today now

> - and sorry again for taking up time on the thread

> with a tangent!

Lunchbreak over. Nevermind. I love a good tangent as much as the next fellow.

I can't make the next meet up at SW's, but may try to go to FH instead. Hope to see you at one of these sometime!

xx

[simonethebeaver]

We actually DID cover the C Section/forceps issue in our antenatal classes. Although that meant I found out that my plan to ask for a C section in the event of a stalled induction to avoid an instrumental birth was a bit flawed, as that might not be possible. Useful to know of potential issues in advance.

In the event of a third, doing that in a suitably bolshy way remains my plan though.

[Suzyrocker]

SE22mum Wrote:

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> Suzyrocker, I got to the end of your interesting

> and thoughtful post!

>

> Your approach sounds very supportive, and I also

> wish it was available on the NHS. I suppose one

> of your challenges must be around helping women to

> think about their expectations and their plans. I

> know my sister had hypnobirthing and she was

> convinced it was a "magic wand" - and

> unfortunately I think the practitioner encouraged

> this. Then on the day she couldn't remember any

> of the exercises and freaked out.

It is a challenge and whilst I attempt to make the intention of the program really clear, the majority of the women who sign up for hypnobirthing courses, want to have a natural, spontaneous, straight forward, vaginal birth and if that doesn't happen it can be tough for them. However, by providing examples of HB Mum's like I mentioned above, I believe that helps to manage the pressure that they may put on themselves to have a 'text book' birth as well as getting the opportunity to speak to the Mums after the birth, particularly if they have had a tough time, helps. But again unfortunately, there's no magic wand...

I couldn't help but read about your sister with a little bit of a rye smile, there are some programs (very good ones)

that use a vast number of different techniques. If you lose your train of thought and then start worrying that you're doing it wrong - it's kind of game over. So, for some people keeping it simple helps :-)

[sillywoman]

Just a reminder for those who are interested to discuss further: the next "Birth Talk ED" (positive birth) meet up is this coming Thursday 10am-12 midday.

If you would like to come and chat positively around the topic of birth in our society then please PM me for venue details. All are welcome, whether you have babies, no babies, had babies ages ago, intend to have babies in the future or just have an interest in Birth. Come and eat biscuits and drink tea and have a chat.

Our rough 'theme' is 'Birth as a Right of Passage' to get us started and we'll see where we go from there.

Almost forgot to mention - babies/toddlers/children are welcome & I'll do what I can to provide toys if needed. I hope some of you can make it.

SWx

[sillywoman]

Shameless Bump.

[simonethebeaver]

I'll see you tomorrow!

[Suzyrocker]

Oh, foolish me! I thought this was an evening event. Hope it was a great session, hopefully catch you next time.

[Saffron]

Alternating mornings and evenings. I couldn't make this one. Hope to see you at the next! xx

[Jog72]

Anyone who missed it but still needs a positive birth fix should feel free to come along to Herne Hill on Saturday - 10.30-12.30. PM me for the address. Tea, biscuits and possibly even a brand new baby...!

[Jog72]

Just a final reminder that the Herne Hill Positive Birth group meeting is tomorrow at 10.30. Do PM me for the address if you fancy tea, biscuits and some positive birth chat!

[Phoenix]

And if you haven't been able to make these last 2 meetings, or even if you have, there is another group this evening in Forest Hill at 19.30 hrs. Pm me for my address. All welcome!

Hope to see later!

[Phoenix]

And if you haven't been able to make these last 2 meetings, or even if you have, there is another group this evening in Forest Hill at 19.30 hrs. Pm me for my address. All welcome!

Hope to see later!

[sillywoman]

Well this months 'Birthtalk ED' has been and gone. We had a lovely, busy session with Midwives, Mums and Babies coming to chat and eat cake. Our focus was 'Birth as a right of passage' and some interesting ideas were discussed around this, ranging from questioning whether we felt it was 'birth' that was the right of passage or the early weeks of motherhood, through anthropological concepts of 'what is a right of passage' - linking with the notion of time out of your community to emerge as something different - to how/whether we as a society are any good at preparing women for this time, allowing, or encouraging them to have this time (pressures from media and celebrities to get back into shape/work), or even recognising that birth IS a time of change for a women - particularly with the first child.

So a busy, and well attended session. Thankyou to all who could come. It was lovely to see so many new faces as well as some familiar ones. The next session is an evening one. It will be on Thursday March 6th, 7-9pm. For venue details please PM me. I'll update with news of the topic once I hear what it is.

Thanks again,

SWx

[Saffron]

Hi! Any news of new topic?

[sillywoman]

Hi Saffron end everyone, sorry I've been quiet. I've been up to my neck writing an essay and haven't lifted my head any further than a word document!

So, the topic for the up-coming Birthtalk ED group is 'Positive Induction'. A toughie perhaps, but it will be interesting to see what we can come up with. I might see if I can find some aids to discussion.

The meeting is on Thursday March 6th; 7-9pm at the usual venue (my house, so please PM me if you'd like the address). EVERYONE WELCOME, whatever your views or experience. If you're interested in hanging out & talking birth for a couple of hours then this is the place for you :D

Tea/coffee & biscuits provided, you just bring your ability to chat, or listen - or both!

[Saffron]

Hmm positive induction? I'm willing to guess some people might think that's an oxymoron! But actually the only close friends I know who had inductions had pretty good experiences. The things they had in common were having really good, active support from family or friends, and also being open minded about the induction process.

Still I wonder, with all the talk around difficulties in inductions and the desire to limit the medicalisation of birth, do inductions sometimes suffer from the 'nocebo' effect?

When a woman is told an induction may be necessary, is she (or her partner) offered any additional psychological support, or is she given only medical advice?

[JayJay5]

hmmmmmmmmmm, gosh i'm looking forward to the meeting - it'll be a juicy and enlightening one i'm sure :)

[sillywoman]

Just to remind anyone interested: This coming Thursday Evening is the next 'ED Birthtalk'. We will be discussing Induction - How; why; the history; UK guidelines; Stats; terminology; how to have a 'good' one; what can be done to speed the process/increase effectiveness, & any stories people would like to bring. It'll be interesting one to consider with a positive slant.

If you fancy an evening of tea/coffee/cake/biscuits and chat about Induction please PM me for venue details or just come along if you know where I am. :D Everyone welcome.

SW xx

[sb]

.

[Saffron]

Ooo, that IS an interesting question! There's possibly more variability in natural length of gestation than is widely recognised: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23594668. As this article suggests, +/- 2.5 weeks surrounding due date is normal for some women.

I guess the problem with modern obstetrics is that it seems to be better at delivering support to babies that need to be born early (ie induced or c-sec), than it is to identifying and supporting babies that have gone over due with dire consequences. I mean, if a midwife thinks a baby needs to come early, there are a lot of things that can be done for that mother-baby dyad before and after the birth. However, the hazard of going over due with undetected problems, could lead to exponential increases of risk of morbidity or mortality.

I would guess as well that this is in contrast to centuries past when being born premature was something midwives couldn't do much about, and premature babies had a higher mortality in the past? In other words, the modern medical system seems to be biased to delivering babies early rather than late.

But has the system run amok? The use of Pitocin (synthetic oxytocin) to induce labour has recently come under a great deal of criticism. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/study-pitocin-harm-babies/story?id=19148043

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/07/pitocin-risks_n_3224811.html

Sb I wonder how that fits in with your EDD vs LMP dates?!

[sillywoman]

Come & we'll explore it! . . .

[Saffron]

sillywoman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just to remind anyone interested: This coming

> Thursday Evening is the next 'ED Birthtalk'. We

> will be discussing Induction - How; why; the

> history; UK guidelines; Stats; terminology; how to

> have a 'good' one; what can be done to speed the

> process/increase effectiveness, & any stories

> people would like to bring. It'll be interesting

> one to consider with a positive slant.

>

> If you fancy an evening of

> tea/coffee/cake/biscuits and chat about Induction

> please PM me for venue details or just come along

> if you know where I am. :D Everyone welcome.

>

> SW xx

See you tonight!

[SE22mum]

Interested to know how the discussion went....?

I had an induction for baby number 1. I went on to have a positive birth experience, but fought really hard for number 2 not to have to be in the same situation and ended up with a non-assisted home birth.

Sometimes I think "positive birth" is something we can give ourselves. i.e., my first birth was probably not ideal in terms of "birthing experiences" as it was induced and ended in forceps and prolonged separation from my son....yet I still felt so proud of myself for having done it at all! that's not to say at all that birth is not sometimes very traumatic, and I have several friends who have been deeply and badly affected, just that I don't think a birth needs to follow a certain pattern to be positive. sometimes there is a reason for medical intervention and that doesn't mean that we have "failed" or have a "negative experience".

apologies - am stating the bleeding' obvious I know..... just interested in the topic and hoping to hear what others thought about it at the session.