The Positive Birth Movement

[sillywoman]

Here: http://www.positivebirthmovement.org/

as described by Milli Hill here;http://www.bestdaily.co.uk/your-life/news/a533313/why-ante-natal-classes-are-out-of-step-with-the-births-women-want-now.html

Do you think a discussion/support group like this would work in ED? I see that there's one in Crystal Palace & one in Herne-Hill, but we are already well served in Ed with this lovely forum/seasonal baby groups and all - do you think it might be popular? I'd love to host/support/whatever something like this once a month. Would anyone be interested do you think?

[Convex]

I would. I'm due with my 2nd and not planning on nhs or Nct this time around.

I'm doing hypnobirthing this time around but it's an intensive course so something more regular would be good.

[canela]

I would. not pregnant and not planning to be again! but would love to support and share positive birth experiences.

[Saffron]

I think this is a great idea, but would like to see a group with more focus on the postpartum experience as well. Many women who went into their birth experiences feeling quite positive come out feeling deeply traumatised, sometimes by the very necessary medical interventions which have saved their lives and the lives of their babies. Whereas other women with quite straightforward births still find postpartum recovery difficult due to a variety of issues including feeding problems, illness (parent or child, including depression), lack of general peer support, or very sadly neonatal death. We not only 'safe' supportive groups for discussing positive births, but also for how to discuss postpartum outcomes of all types. xx

[Convex]

Maybe a graduates group for post birth....!

[Kes]

Saffron - I think that would be a great idea.

I've only had chance to have a quick look at the links so I may have totally the wrong idea here but the groups sound quite anti-doctor? Isn't there a risk that women will be taught to expect conflict before they've even talked to a doctor? I know there is a massive problem with Ob/Gyns in the US insisting on too many interventions but that really isn't my experience here (if anything the opposite was true for me), and however positive and prepared you are sometimes things just don't work out and you do need medical care.

I just worry that only talking about positive experiences can leave women horribly unprepared if that's not what they get.

[dulwichpsychology]

Sillywoman - I think its a wonderful idea. I am also not currently pregnant but I think it sounds like a great group.

Kes - My understanding from the website is that there is an emphasis on having a positive birth experience no matter what kind of birth you might have? Maybe sillywoman could shed a bit more light on her expectations for the group. I agree that it is important to think about the 'unexpected'.

Saffron - I also agree with you on the need for support in the postpartum period. I currently offer groups in East Dulwich for women affected by postnatal depression . However interest and attendance has been fairly sparse. Yet I have been contacted about informal support groups to discuss a variety of topics. I have therefore been planning to offer something more informal (and free) on a monthly basis as a space for any difficulties which new mothers might be facing - whether this is birth trauma, PND, feeding difficulties, feeling overwhelmed or lonely etc. I will shortly be adding a couple of dates to gauge interest in this kind of group. (Sillywoman - I would also be interested in any potential collaboration.) www.perinatalpsychologist.co.uk

[londonhypnobirthing]

SW I'm a big fan of this movement and would be very keen to get involved or co-host something with you if you were up for it?

I'm interested in the issues that Saffron and Kes have brought up and think it's important to get a balance between sharing positive experiences and providing relevant invormation and support on the reality of motherhood. Through my teaching I tend to find that women have better experiences when they feel informed and empowered to make the best decisions for themselves and their babies, rather than necessarily having what is deemed a "normal" or natural experience. In my opinion, it's about educating mums and dads about the reality of birth and beyond, rather than what we are merely conditioned to believe is true based on other people's experiences and the manipulative nature of the media.

[sillywoman]

Oh gosh, umm expectations - I really haven't thought much beyond "that sounds good, I wonder if it might be useful round here?".

So, right, brain in gear... well my take on it would be an informal drop in group, say once a month at a regular time where women who were interested (pregnant or not) could meet to discuss how best to create the circumstance that will enable them to have the best chance of a positive experience of childbirth - and eat biscuits (very important). Hopefully a sense of empowerment & information would follow? I don't see it as an antenatal education class at all so (though I'm sure there will inevitably be some crossover), more a democratically run support group with an agenda set by those who are attending. The focus would be 'positive approaches to labour & birth' and that would need to encompass all types of birth from whale-music water births to elective caesareans, as it's all birth isn't it?

Kes, I think I see what you're saying, but I have a suspicion that you may be confusing 'positive childbirth' with 'natural childbirth'. I don't see it as the same thing at all, while positive childbirth may encompass natural childbirth within it's remit it will only be as a small part of the broader childbirth picture. I would think positive birth is partly about aiming to remain informed, empowered & respected by your caregivers whatever scenario you find yourself in and whoever they are? I dunno though - come along & join the chat, add to the discussion, if you're free?

I am more than happy to collaborate with others on this. londonhypnobirthing & dulwichpsychology I'll PM you. Meantime maybe we should set the ball rolling with an initial meet up to gauge support. How would the first Tuesday of every month work for people? Say 7-9pmish? I am happy to host at my house - I can fit up to 15 people in my front room at a squeeze. Or we can do it elsewhere if someone's got a bigger/better/nicer space to offer (my loo is clean & works but the decor is sadly lacking)?

If this all sounds good then maybe we should just suck it & see? However I do have a fly in my ointment - I can't do this coming Tuesday (first one in Dec), so either we could start the ball rolling the following one (Dec 10th) or wait until Jan if that doesn't suit? Am happy to do either depending on availability of those who have expressed an interest - let me know?

With regard to the postnatal support group: this is an area I've long had an interest in and I'm delighted to hear that someone for whom it's an area of expertise is taking the initiative to get something up and running. Nice one dulwichpsychology. I strongly agree with you Saffron regarding the need & am hopeful that dulwichpsychology's sessions will take off.

[Convex]

What about a different night next week? No time like the present.... Etc

I promise to come and with luck it won't be just you and me scoffing all the biscuits. Ok, me.

The distinction between positive and natural is a good one. I mentioned to someone today at work I am trying hypnobirthing and they said 'oh no we want drugs' I tried to explain the 2 could probably co exist fairly comfortably but not sure I really made any sense!

[simonethebeaver]

I'd be very interested in throwing ideas around to see what sort of group would work! But Tuesdays are a bad day for me unfortunately.

[sillywoman]

The only other day I could do next week is Friday? Sadly I haven't got any evenings free though. Am keen to 'throw ideas round' (like that image S-the-b :D ), but whilst there IS no time like the present, equally there's no rush. We have time to find a time & date that suits all interested parties . . .

So how would next Friday (6th) fit?

[Convex]

I can do the 6, otherwise any night the following week except Tuesday.

Are you getting PMs as well sw or is it just me so far?

All you pregnant ladies - think of it as an experiment, at worst you meet some nice mums to be and at best you get a bit of extra birth prep in.

I can do some baking too.

[jac2blade]

I'm really keen on being a part of this and hope to be able to make Friday. Is it the evening or day time? Just need to sort Childcare!

[Kes]

Hi SW, sorry meant to reply before now but it's been one of THOSE weeks!

I think you're right that I am assuming it's the same as natural birth. I've only ever come across phrases like "empowering" "positive birth experience" etc, being used by natural birth advocates. Although personally I found my elective C section far more empowering than my (admittedly failed) attempt at a midwife only water birth.

It was also a few phrases in the article you link too that gave me the impression that the organisation was anti-medicine. The writer says she "escaped the NHS" and talks about women saying they were or weren't "allowed" what they wanted. I don't think it's helpful to make women expect conflict with doctors especially as most won't see an Obstetrician unless there is some kind of problem.

Of course your group is free to take a broader view and I wish you well with it. I guess my concerns come from my own experience of getting lots of positive messages about natural, empowering birth experiences and then being treated very unpleasantly when I "failed" to live up to expectations. I've heard people say that pregnant women should only ever listen to entirely positive stories about lovely natural births, or else fear will become a self fulfilling prophesy, but I think that that risks leaving many horribly unprepared for what may happen.

Personally, I'd say that straightforward natural birth is a positive thing, but so is having all of modern medicine as a backup. If nature has screwed up and, for example, given you a baby that's just too big for your silly bipedal pelvis then stuff nature we have the skills and technology to come out of it all just fine - which has to be positive!

Anyway, I hope that makes sense in where I'm coming from and perhaps offers a slightly different viewpoint for you. I'm afraid I really can't see me making it out of an evening any time soon to actually come to your group, I've just gone back to work after baby 2 so all is chaos here at the moment!

K

[sillywoman]

Well I was thinking the 6th, daytime jac2blade, but I could do the evening if that was more popular?

Convex I haven't had any PM's oddly - I wonder why that is?

Kes, I wish you COULD come, yours is exactly the sort of story that makes me think we need a much more positive approach to ALL types of birth. Are you sure we can't tempt you - I have wi-ine? :D

stheb - can you make Friday?

Please can anyone interested in coming to a 'positive birth' meet-up on Friday 6th send me a PM? Then I can gauge daytime or evening, make a decision & send my address to those wanting to come - or we could always go for an external venue, Cafe or pub, I suppose?

[Saffron]

Have you put a note up on any of the other Family Room groups, eg winter/spring babies groups?

I might be able to make Friday, depending on time. I'm not pregnant, but I'm happy to share my experiences of pregnancy and beyond.

How are people hoping a positive birth group might differ from for example NCT? I found NCT was very good for basic information, although I know there is some variation in what is presented depending on your course leader.

However, I didn't necessarily come away from NCT classes feeling empowered, which is one thing I think is missing in a lot of birth experiences where families come out with a negative experience. Women don't feel like their voices were heard. What can you do if you have concerns about your own health or that of the foetus late in pregnancy? What can you do if you keep getting turned away from hospital in labour, but you feel that you need to be there? What interventions can you request if your birth is not preceding well? How do you get a second opinion during labour? What's the minimum monitoring any foetus should receive during labour, eg intermittent auscultations? How do you refuse/request an emergency procedure? How do you get the correct diagnosis and treatment for postpartum complications?

There's no single certain answer to any of these. But one thing is for sure, if you're feeling small and scared and bereft of any 'Voice', it's much harder to have a positive experience no matter how well your birth proceeds.

How can we help women and their partners have a 'Voice' in labour and beyond?

xx

[CocoC]

Hello sillywoman, I have PM-ed you.

[simonethebeaver]

I'm going along on Friday - not pregnant but very interested in promoting positive thinking around birth, whatever kind of birth it is. Saffron, it strikes me that women hire doulas for a good number of the reasons you list.

[Kes]

That's a good point about partners being heard Saffron. I found I was in an odd state and completely incapable of speaking up for myself once I was well into labour. By the third day if the midwife had recommended be-heading me I'd have agreed and thanked her politely for it! Very important to have a partner who can step in.

simonethebeaver I looked into doulas for my second but most seemed to be keen helping people achieve a natural birth, so I didn't really feel they would be right for me. and of course not an option financially for the majority of people anyway.

[simonethebeaver]

Yes, financially obviously an issue. I just meant that there is clearly a need for that sort of figure, hence the use of doulas by some. Incidentally, I've been on a doula course and there should not necessarily be an exclusively natural birth focus. One woman I met had had very satisfying jobs supporting woman before and after C sections.

One of the most positive birth stories I've ever been told by a friend is about her C section, and it wasn't a planned one. I don't see that positive birth needs to be against medicine, even if some think of it like that.

[sillywoman]

So it seems that Friday morning is the most popular time. Can we say 10am(ish), at my house (Please PM for address) for coffee, biscuits and generally positive discussion? It would be great to have as many interested people as possible. Not least because I feel quite nervous this :D I am imagining that this first meet-up will to establish some group ground rules and set an agenda for what people want, and how we'd like to move forward with the group. To reiterate. This is a positive birth group - to focus on being positive about whatever kind of birth you have/chose. I like Saffron's word - 'empowered'.

Saff - please come, you have such clear thinking on this kind of thing, it would be great to have you with us from the get-go of this group.

Have PM'd those of you who Pm'd me, and am looking forward to seeing you on Friday.

SWx

[Saffron]

Yes, deffo coming, but probably running a bit late. xx

[Saffron]

Does anyone know if Midivydale might be interested in coming? I think she has written very eloquently on difficult birth issues in the past. xx

[dulwichpsychology]

Sounds like you have managed to put a little group together very quickly!