A plea to cyclists

[savage]

Hi

Today I almost hit a cyclist in broad daylight when crossing the Barry road/ Underhill road junction. I looked both ways and looked again & I did really did not see the cyclist who was cycling down Barry road until I pulled out and almost went straight into him. Fortunately I saw him at the last minute & applied my breaks, giving both of us quite a scare.

I do understand why he swore at me & I apologised profusely through the closed window & we both went on our way. I was quite shaken & I'm sure he was too, I've since been trying to understand how it could have happened. Iam a careful driver, how had I not seen him?

Then it hit me. This cyclist was wearing autumnal colours. A muted reddy brown jumper, muted trousers & hat, he simply blended in. There was no high Vis jacket, no lights, no helmet nothing.

I have just read about a 6th death on our roads in the last two weeks, this could have been number 7!

I will promise to look more carefully, but please can I ask cyclists to help me see you. Please can you wear something that stands out!

And if the cyclist I nearly hit does read this, I really am sorry.

Kate

[polla2256]

Its not all about what is worn in terms of visability (I'm a cyclist, motorcyclist, hgv license holder and car driver). A big element in these circumstances is how humans perceive shape and movement, plus the fact that we don't process every bit of info represented in front of us.

Unfortunately this means some of our thought and action is subconscious, hence the fact we don't always see things that are there or perceive not to have seen it. So really its only your fault in so far as you are human, you reacted correctly and avoided incident so well done.

As for cyclists I suggest reading or even paying for motorcycle training (I find it really helps on my cycle commute). Some basic techniques are carrying out life saver checks, understanding SMIDSY avoidance tactics (Sorry Mate I Didn't See You) and how / when to use them - there is an extremely good article on the internet (somewhee) written by a fighter pilot / motorcyclist on this, the other important technique is lane dominance and positioning (open the gate close the gate technique).

We cant (and shouldn't) always blame each other, yes there are a few muppets about but only a few, ultimately we must take on a degree of responsability ourselves irrespective of how we get around.

[PeckhamRose]

What a great comment above by polla and a very open and honest opening post by savage.

Mr PR was stopped by police on his bicycle on Vauxhall Bridge Road today asking why he does not wear a helmet. Research showed that vehicles actually tend to give helmet free cyclists MORE space albeit subconsciously. But a helmet does not save a head that is going to smash on a road. It's a bit of plastic. They don't do much for motorcyclists either. They're actually built the wrong way in, the hard bit should be touching the skull; the soft bit on the outside.

And that mad bint Jenny Jones saying HGVs shouldn't be allowed to ride through London at rush hour!

I think I shall write to her and suggest she push for a law that they should not be allowed to turn left. Ever. That will sort it.

What about all the pedestrians who have been killed. And dare we suggest that in SOME cases Some people who ride bicycles / pedestrians / others who die in road accidents were to blame? How many times do I have to use the horn on my bike (it may be more dangerous for me to swerve than hit the idiot) to warn some twonk who is wondering across the road on their mobile?

etc

etc

etc

and breathe!

[Loz]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But a helmet does not save a head that is going to smash on a road. It's a bit of plastic. They don't do

> much for motorcyclists either. They're actually built the wrong way in, the hard bit should be touching the

> skull; the soft bit on the outside.

Hmm - all those helmet making experts are wrong? As I said in another thread, I am on my second (similarly constructed) snowboard helmet and I have a pretty good idea what would have happened to my skull had I not been wearing the first, now rather broken, one. Catching a back edge at 40-odd kmh and being slammed into the icy piste, I certainly wouldn't have stood up, albeit rather dazed, and went home.

Helmets are made to disperse force, not pad the head, like a martial arts expert slaps the floor hard with their hand when they are thrown. It's similar to the old 'how to drop an egg off the roof' experiment. Wrap it lots of soft bubble wrap - broken egg. Give it a harder force dispersing crumple zone, like a cone of paper, pointy end first, and you have a chance of saving the egg.

> What about all the pedestrians who have been killed. And dare we suggest that in SOME cases

> Some people who ride bicycles / pedestrians / others who die in road accidents were to blame?

Just because you come out worst in an incident, PR, doesn't mean you aren't possibly responsible for the incident happening. If I run out onto the road without looking, then I would be the one to blame for my own demise.

[spark67]

It doesn't take much to cause serious damage to the brain, the height from a fall off a bike can cause bleeding, especially if hit on the temples, as happened to my sisters friend, he had to have 3 blood clots removed from his brain after banging the side of his head after a minor tumble off his bike, a helmet would have cushioned the vulnerable parts of the head, I have been told by a friend who is a reconstruction surgeon, that it makes him shiver when he sees cyclists without Helmets as he has seen the damage that can be done to an unprotected head.

I don't go with the idea that drivers do not give a wider berth to cyclists with helmets on, I've been driving for 30 years and give a wide berth regardless what they are wearing as I see another person on a bike, makes no difference if I see them without a helmet or not. And have not noticed any difference to drivers attitudes to me before and after I started wearing one (the accident that I mentioned above changed my mind)

[LadyDeliah]

When I cycle, I'm lit up like a Christmas tree but I still have drivers, who clearly see me, pulling out in front of me because they don't appear to think they should give priority to bikes as they do to other vehicles.

[Blackcurrant]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When I cycle, I'm lit up like a Christmas tree but

> I still have drivers, who clearly see me, pulling

> out in front of me because they don't appear to

> think they should give priority to bikes as they

> do to other vehicles.

And there's nothing you can do about drivers who are texting or fiddling with iPhone/satnav/mp3 player etc etc.

[Dopamine1979]

polla2256 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Its not all about what is worn in terms of

> visability (I'm a cyclist, motorcyclist, hgv

> license holder and car driver). A big element in

> these circumstances is how humans perceive shape

> and movement, plus the fact that we don't process

> every bit of info represented in front of us.

>

> Unfortunately this means some of our thought and

> action is subconscious, hence the fact we don't

> always see things that are there or perceive not

> to have seen it. So really its only your fault in

> so far as you are human, you reacted correctly and

> avoided incident so well done.

>

> As for cyclists I suggest reading or even paying

> for motorcycle training (I find it really helps on

> my cycle commute). Some basic techniques are

> carrying out life saver checks, understanding

> SMIDSY avoidance tactics (Sorry Mate I Didn't See

> You) and how / when to use them - there is an

> extremely good article on the internet (somewhee)

> written by a fighter pilot / motorcyclist on this,

> the other important technique is lane dominance

> and positioning (open the gate close the gate

> technique).

>

> We cant (and shouldn't) always blame each other,

> yes there are a few muppets about but only a few,

> ultimately we must take on a degree of

> responsability ourselves irrespective of how we

> get around.

Excellent post.

[LadyDeliah]

Blackcurrant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LadyDeliah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > When I cycle, I'm lit up like a Christmas tree

> but

> > I still have drivers, who clearly see me,

> pulling

> > out in front of me because they don't appear to

> > think they should give priority to bikes as

> they

> > do to other vehicles.

>

> And there's nothing you can do about drivers who

> are texting or fiddling with iPhone/satnav/mp3

> player etc etc.

Other than lobby for a crackdown on these dangerous lawbreakers.

[Blackcurrant]

[Burbage]

spark67 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't go with the idea that drivers do not give

> a wider berth to cyclists with helmets on

Here you go: http://opus.bath.ac.uk/9332/

[jimbo1964]

The Barry Road/Underhill junction is horrible. As a driver pulling put visibility is terrible due to parked cars. As a cyclist I would approach with extreme caution.

[JohnL]

A few years ago it was suggested a 'go left' voice

the same as a ' this vehicle is reversing'

popular - maybe not - but might work.

PeckhamRose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What a great comment above by polla and a very

> open and honest opening post by savage.

> Mr PR was stopped by police on his bicycle on

> Vauxhall Bridge Road today asking why he does not

> wear a helmet. Research showed that vehicles

> actually tend to give helmet free cyclists MORE

> space albeit subconsciously. But a helmet does

> not save a head that is going to smash on a road.

> It's a bit of plastic. They don't do much for

> motorcyclists either. They're actually built the

> wrong way in, the hard bit should be touching the

> skull; the soft bit on the outside.

>

> And that mad bint Jenny Jones saying HGVs

> shouldn't be allowed to ride through London at

> rush hour!

> I think I shall write to her and suggest she push

> for a law that they should not be allowed to turn

> left. Ever. That will sort it.

>

> What about all the pedestrians who have been

> killed. And dare we suggest that in SOME cases

> Some people who ride bicycles / pedestrians /

> others who die in road accidents were to blame?

> How many times do I have to use the horn on my

> bike (it may be more dangerous for me to swerve

> than hit the idiot) to warn some twonk who is

> wondering across the road on their mobile?

>

> etc

>

> etc

>

> etc

>

> and breathe!

[Vanessa3]

Great post Polla2256. I've been a cyclist on London streets for years, but it wasn't until I did my motorcycle training that I understood the importance of how a few little techniques can help save your life- lane dominance, road positioning, checking your blind spot & knowing when you are in someone else's blind spot. I hope more cyclist do the training - well worth the money.

http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/learn-5-recent-incidents/

[VeronicaSawyer]

"A few years ago it was suggested a 'go left' voice

the same as a ' this vehicle is reversing'"

This would be great, but only if it is conected by electrodes implanted in the drivers brain. Sometimes drivers just don't indicate.

Great post, Polla.

[Twirly]

Aren't most of the junctions on Barry Road bad to pull out of? I regularly come out of Tyrell Road, turning right onto Barry Road and edge out very slowly checking both ways carefully. Trouble is, you can't see properly until you're out far enough to be in someone's way, be they car, motorcycle or bike. Not a lot that can be done about that unfortunately.

[Willard]

Sadly this happened near Camberwell yesterday. Please take care everyone...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24989985

[savage]

Yes, that junction is nasty, but I did look and didn't see the cyclist. Both the cyclist & myself are lucky that I broke just in time on this occasion. I will definitely be taking more time in the future, but if there is anything the cyclist can do as well to help the driver see than that has got to be a good thing hasn't it?

I didn't want to start a debate about who was right or wrong, I just don't want to kill or injure someone, so please if you can wear some hi-Vis clothing and drivers please look really carefully, perhaps we can avoid another death.

[davidk]

Good that you saw the person on the bike and stopped. A pity that you seem prepared to have blamed him had you hit him. It is your responsibility to look out for the traffic to which you have to give way. It is the cyclists responsibility to ride in a way that is appropriate for the conditions. His clothing and safety gear is irrelevant.

[savage]

David

It really sadens me that you think I blame the cyclist as I don't.

Why can't I come onto this forum and admit I almost did something so horrendous and make some suggestions that may or May not prevent an accident happening in the future?

[davidk]

savage Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> David

>

> It really sadens me that you think I blame the

> cyclist as I don't.

>

> Why can't I come onto this forum and admit I

> almost did something so horrendous and make some

> suggestions that may or May not prevent an

> accident happening in the future?

Because you explicitly said that the reason (or one of the reasons) you didn't see him was because he was dressed autumnally.

[fatcats]

I've been a cyclist and driven a scooter, haven't driven a car as yet.

Motorcycle training is great for safety, having said that so is the cycle training that Southwark and other councils used to offer free of charge to residents. When I did it it was 2 x two-hour free sessions and it was invaluable. We went through everything like lane dominance, making eye contact with drivers, life saver checks, I'd recommend it to anyone.

Someone made a really good point on another thread about a fatal accident - it was that 90% of accidents can be avoided by the person whose fault it isn't.

So I think it's perfectly reasonable to point out that cyclists could avoid accidents by wearing high viz gear, no implication of fault at all. Even if a driver just gets distracted - in which case the driver would be at fault - that high viz gear can be enough to jolt someone's awareness back to where it should be.

ETA: free cycle training still available in Southwark:

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/200123/cycling/446/

[Tommy1000]

Not sure why you're focussing on apportionment of blame which is absent from savage's post, davidk. Indeed why can't savage come on the forum, admit a mistake, explain what she will do in the future to reduce the chances of something similar happening and, at the same, make eminently sensible and reasonable suggestions as to how the cyclist might cycle more safely?

Unless you're disputing that high-vis clothing - to take one example - is a good idea?

You said "It is the cyclists responsibility to ride in a way that is appropriate for the conditions. His clothing and safety gear is irrelevant." This is inherently contradictory. Clothing and safety gear could not be any more relevant to ridiing in a way 'appropriate for the conditions'.

We can only hope that you don't go around dissuading cyclists from wearing high-vis clothing which will greatly increase their liklihood of being seen by drivers.

[davidk]

The irritation comes from the idea that it is appropriate to tell cyclists how they should behave, even when they are behaving perfectly safely and legally. If the OP had almost pulled out and crashed into another car, would s/he have come on here lecturing motorists to use lights in the day time or buy bright yellow cars? Of course not.

[fatcats]

I don't see someone lecturing, all I can see is someone who is deeply shaken by an experience and who is trying to minimise the chance of it happening again.