Cycle Safety

[mynamehere]

In the last couple of weeks 5 people driving cars have been killed by people on bicycles. Some of the cyclists rode off and the ones who stopped to see if the car driver was alright and were asked for a comment said: "I didn't see the car, it was black and the windows were smoked. The driver didn't indicate clearly and I wasn't really pleased by the position of the car in the road. Road user rules clearly state ?.." The cyclists said, "sorry" which the courts accepted as all 5 deaths and the thousands and thousands before them were accidents and the allocation of blame while in all likelihood the fault of the car drivers for mistakes and poor driving was otherwise unclear. The cyclists were cautioned and given points in the few cases where it could be proved beyond reasonable doubt they shared blame for the unfortunate accidents. Oh, and what's for dinner?

[BrandNewGuy]

C'mon, you're not going to change car drivers' behaviour by grandstanding. Yes, lobby for improvements for cyclists, but in the meantime accept the world as it is not how you want it to be. London is currently a potentially dangerous place for cyclists. Adjust accordingly - I'd hate to think that cyclists' deaths are being used as a political lobbying weapon.

[ratty]

Glad I asked and it is not just me that is confused.

[Applespider]

VeronicaSawyer Wrote:

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Or, more commonly but bizarely, will see you

> are there but forget you are actually moving. So

> they treat you as a stationary object in the road

> and pull out to go around you but then pull back

> in or make a left turn directly in front of you,

> seemingly not realising that you have moved

> forward. If you're lucky you'll realise what's

> about to happen and manage to slam on the brakes

> or jump on to the pavement in time. If you're not

> then you'll end up knocked off, like Josephine, or

> worse. -

Happened to me tonight on South Lambeth Road. A car moved into the right hand lane to overtake me (since I was in the middle of the left) about 10ft before the junction and then promptly put his indicator on and turned left in front of me. He obviously saw me otherwise he wouldn't have overtaken in the other lane. Thankfully I was able to brake.

Glad that you're OK Josephine and I'd agree with those who suggest reporting it to the police even if there's no other evidence.

It's been a horrid week for cycling news. Ride and drive safely everyone and watch out for one another.

[spark67]

Ive fitted a mirror to my right hand handle bar now... it may not look "cool" but a quick glance as I approach the entrance to a junction and i can see if anyone is coming up behind me looking like they are going to try and cut in front to turn left.

[peckhambog]

AcedOut Wrote:

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> I'm a cyclist, a motorcyclist and car driver. I

> continually see cyclists on the left side of a

> junction when going straight on. My advice - be in

> the MIDDLE of the road if you intend to go

> straight on, even if that means holding up the

> cars. If you stay left and go straight on, cars

> will often not see you.

> As a cyclist, I only ever overtake on the outside,

> although 'filtering' is perfectly legal in

> stationary or slow moving traffic (whatever mode

> of transport).

>

> It's all about riding defensively.

>

> I hope you're alright.

Spot on.

I commute to work on a bike, ride a bike as part of my work, and am trained as a cycle instructor. Have been cycling in London since 1990.

I AM terrified by the dangerous riding of so many cyclists. I don't mean the idiot aggressive ones (who sadly will come to grief at some stage to the cost of themselves and many others) but the ignorant innocents who ride too close to the curb, and go up the inside of large vehicles.

Ideally on a road with fast traffic you should cycle ON the inside third dividing line [if you divided the lane into thirds].

In rush hour when traffic is slow, ride in the middle of the lane as there no advantage to the car overtaking you because there is a car immediately ahead.

And when you overtake, always overtake on the right, the driver's side, that's the mirror they see you in.

Make eye contact with "everyone"; safely cultivate to be always looking all around.

Get yourself an 'exchanging places' go in the seat of an HGV where you'll 'see' the considerable blind spots for the drivers (no matter how many lights and high vis kit you've got on).

This current spate of fatalities has made even me feel vulnerable.

[LadyDeliah]

Agree with all of that Peckhambog, but isn't it also time that other road users took proper responsibility for their actions on the roads and planners started to include the needs of cyclists in all infrastructure projects?

[Pugwash]

In response to AnotherPaul's comment

I have been a cyclist and a moped rider as well as a car driver. I used to cycle from Barry Road right down to Westminster Bridge (County Hall). Like a previous comment, I had wing mirrors on both side of the bike, this had 2 advantages - it gave me extra width - cars gave me a little more room as did not want my mirrors scratching their paintwork. It also gave me some indication of what was happening behind me so if anyone was indicating, I would see them in the mirrors. With the poor light even around 4 pm on a cloudy day, I have to put my car lights on and it is much easier to see reflective clothing. I have had a couple of near misses where in a poorly lit street, I have had to swerve to avoid cyclists in dark clothing, on dark bikes with no lights who seem to appear out of the shadows.

My husband has cycled all his life and his worse moment was someone getting out of the drivers seat of their car without checking the road was free, the car door was opened suddenly as he passed by and was knocked into the main road. Apart from bruises and grazes he did not have any injuries. He had a go at the motorist and demanded an apology, when this was not forthcoming, he took down the motorists registration plate and stated that he was going to notify the police. He reported this to the police, and was informed that the police traced the man and gave him a written caution.

[VeronicaSawyer]

Mirrors are a useful extra reasurance (and yes, anything that gives extra width helps) but should nver be used in place of the 'lifesaver glance' over your right shoulder before you indicate to go right and before you pull out or turn. Actually looking over your shoulder not only ensures you've got any blindspot covered, but also indicates to the traffic behind you that you're about to manouvre.

[johnie]

VeronicaSawyer Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mirrors are a useful extra reasurance (and yes,

> anything that gives extra width helps) but should

> nver be used in place of the 'lifesaver glance'

> over your right shoulder before you indicate to go

> right and before you pull out or turn. Actually

> looking over your shoulder not only ensures you've

> got any blindspot covered, but also indicates to

> the traffic behind you that you're about to

> manouvre.

I was always taught to look 'under your shoulder', dipping your head to look behind, as turning your neck swivels your shoulders and so can make you swerve a little into the road.

[spark67]

That's why I have my mirror, just gives a bit of extra safety I do look behind when turning, but I can't keep looking behind every time i pass a junction entrance, to see if I'm going to be overtaken by a car turning left, i'll never be looking in front

[Sheppy16]

I am regular London driver and I was involved in an incident with cyclists a few days ago in another part of town. I feel that the OP's post highlights a massive problem on London's roads that are exacerbated by the Cycle Superhighways. I have been "undertaken on the left" by cyclists on a number of occasions seemingly oblivious to my intentions as a driver and I feel that this issue needs to be addressed - not that I am saying that it is the fault of the cyclist, but this situation makes it extremely likely that accidents will happen. Thankfully no one was hurt in the incident in which I was involved and the fault was mostly down to the cycle superhighway! I stopped whilst indicating to turn across the lane of cyclists when one of them stopped suddenly fearing the worst. She then got another cyclist or two crashing into her causing a few cuts and bruises. I didn't turn at all and no one hit me but I know that this wouldn't have happened if I hadn't wanted to turn left.

I have no idea what the solution is, other than training and enforcement of regulations such as HELMETS. That and putting the cycle lanes in the middle of the road - not even sure that would be any good.

I urge drivers to be vigilant and aware and cyclists to realise it is they that will come off the worse in any situation so be ultra-cautious.

[mynamehere]

Sheppy16's post is the nicest and most considerate post on cycling I've ever read on this forum

[davidk]

Yes, very balanced. Except of course that enforcing the use of helmets would make no difference to accident outcomes (the people who die in London are not dying from head injuries) and would most likely suppress demand for cycling, which is a lose-lose for everybody.

The solution in the incident that you describe is for there to be properly segregated cycling infrastructure provided on main roads, and intense traffic calming and mode filtering on side roads. In the Netherlands, you would have had to give way to the cycle track before making your left turn, everyone would have understood this and there would have been none of the confusion which led to the crash. It is more often than not a failure of design rather than behaviour or judgement. The Dutch and the Danes have safer roads than us. They are not better drivers, they just organise their public space better.

[edcam]

I agree davidk. There needs to be a radical rethink of cycle lanes and an examination of the systems in places like the Netherlands. At the moment the combination of ignorance and arrogance of both motorists and cyclists makes these accidents inevitable. The amount of poor judgement/downright stupidity I see daily on the part of huge numbers of cyclists and a fair few motorists is undoubtedly responsible for the pointless "us and them" attitude that is exacerbating the problem.

Motorists deliberately playing chicken and cyclists jumping lights, cycling on pavements and undertaking are things I see several times on a daily basis. It makes me angry and I rarely cycle or drive in London, so no wonder there is so much rage among those who do. Something has to change.

[josephineB]

-- moved topic --

[BunnyBurrow]

Glad you're okay JosephineB, but I would urge you to report this to the police. When a collision occurs between a motorist and another person, be it another motorist a pedestrian or a cyclist it is at best selfish and at worst downright callous and cold to drive off without at least stopping to check that you are okay.

This person probably still has no idea whether you we're seriously injured or not! They need reporting!

[josephineB]

Thanks . I have now reported it to the police. It was on the turning to Wood Vale.

[josephineB]

Spark 67, I like the mirror idea. Let us know how you get on with it.

I'm also interested by the filtering versus overtaking on the right discussion. I generally stay on the left as that's where the cycle lanes tend to appear, for example cycling from Camberwell Green to Vauxhall. I'd value advise on where to position myself on the road when traffic is heavy in particular.

[Applespider]

Josephine, I nearly got taken out by an HGV there a year or so ago. He moved into the nearside lane to go straight ahead on South Circ and obviously didn't see me in what had been the bus lane (despite me have double rear lights and reflective belt on).

I stay on the left when the traffic is flowing faster than I can cycle. At junctions or where the road narrows (e.g. a traffic island), I'll signal right and move outwards a little to try to stop cars overtaking at a dangerous point. If the traffic is stopped (and the road is wide enough), then I'll move to the right and filter down that side.

Not sure what your normal route is but I go from around Wood Vale to Vauxhall every day and find the route via Herne Hill/Brixton/Stockwell far more pleasant. The roads are quieter until Brixton and then there are longer stretches of bus lanes and less traffic than on Camberwell New Road.

It's worth checking out the council website for some free cycle training. They'll often ride your regular route with you and point out where you need to be more assertive and what to watch out for. It's one on one and lasts a couple of hours. I found it invaluable.

[Alan Medic]

davidk Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, very balanced. Except of course that

> enforcing the use of helmets would make no

> difference to accident outcomes (the people who

> die in London are not dying from head injuries)

> and would most likely suppress demand for cycling,

> which is a lose-lose for everybody.

This person wouldn't agree.

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/news/helmet_saved_my_life_says_cyclist_trapped_under_car_in_spitalfields_1_2991896

[titch juicy]

peckhambog Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> AcedOut Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I'm a cyclist, a motorcyclist and car driver. I

> > continually see cyclists on the left side of a

> > junction when going straight on. My advice - be

> in

> > the MIDDLE of the road if you intend to go

> > straight on, even if that means holding up the

> > cars. If you stay left and go straight on, cars

> > will often not see you.

>

> > As a cyclist, I only ever overtake on the

> outside,

> > although 'filtering' is perfectly legal in

> > stationary or slow moving traffic (whatever

> mode

> > of transport).

> >

> > It's all about riding defensively.

> >

> > I hope you're alright.

>

> Spot on.

>

> I commute to work on a bike, ride a bike as part

> of my work, and am trained as a cycle instructor.

> Have been cycling in London since 1990.

>

> I AM terrified by the dangerous riding of so many

> cyclists. I don't mean the idiot aggressive ones

> (who sadly will come to grief at some stage to the

> cost of themselves and many others) but the

> ignorant innocents who ride too close to the curb,

> and go up the inside of large vehicles.

>

> Ideally on a road with fast traffic you should

> cycle ON the inside third dividing line .

>

> In rush hour when traffic is slow, ride in the

> middle of the lane as there no advantage to the

> car overtaking you because there is a car

> immediately ahead.

>

> And when you overtake, always overtake on the

> right, the driver's side, that's the mirror they

> see you in.

>

> Make eye contact with "everyone"; safely cultivate

> to be always looking all around.

>

> Get yourself an 'exchanging places' go in the seat

> of an HGV where you'll 'see' the considerable

> blind spots for the drivers (no matter how many

> lights and high vis kit you've got on).

>

> This current spate of fatalities has made even me

> feel vulnerable.

It's nice to read sensible comments from regaular cyclists.

All cyclists on here should read the two posts above.

The only thing in the post above that I find difficult to do myself is overtaking on the right- as it always seems that motorbikes, or other cyclists are flying towards you on my side (the wrong side for them) of the road

[peckhambog]

titch juicy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> All cyclists on here should read the two posts

> above.

>

> The only thing in the post above that I find

> difficult to do myself is overtaking on the right-

> as it always seems that motorbikes, or other

> cyclists are flying towards you on my side (the

> wrong side for them) of the road

Titch Juicy - yes, you are right, when overtaking on the right you face the new hazard of oncoming vehicles (motorbikes and cyclists). So naturally you need to remain in the safety of 'your' side of the road [in the line of the vehicle in front's off side wing mirror] and only overtake when it's safe to.

It's all about sharing the road, bucket loads of courtesy while defensively riding by being sensibly assertive.

- - - - -

Separately, is anyone interested on my take on helmets, or is that a separate thread?

[Loz]

peckhambog Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Separately, is anyone interested on my take on

> helmets, or is that a separate thread?

Personally, I think it's a no-brainer (all puns intended). But apparently there is some research that says wearing a helmet makes you act/ride like more of a dick, so the anti-helmet brigade somehow cling to that.

The other (rather poor) argument is that if you make people wear a helmet, they might not cycle so much. They might not get as many head injuries and/or die either, but hey! at least they are dying on a bike.

Skiing/snowboarding had a similar debate. The no-helmets argument held sway for a while, but common sense reined and these days helmets are more usual than not. Having smashed my first helmet, I can rather see their value. Personally, I'd like to se helmets mandated on a slope. This will probably happen informally as insurance companies are just starting to put it in the fine print.

[PN33]

Bloody hell http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/male-cyclist-in-his-60s-dies-in-crash-with-lorry-at-camberwell-road-8947110.html