Poppy day; how and why do we support our veterans?

[malumbu]

This may be the most controversial thread I have started. I am ambivalent towards poppy day and the like. Not remembrance I hasten to add, I am old enough that the last World War was still a strong memory to the adult population when I was growing up. I then had living family who served in both World Wars.

Growing up at that time I thought that Britain would never get involved in a major conflict again, surely the world had learned its lesson. The last three we have been involved in were certainly not in my name.

However I feel that it is taboo to debate how as a nation we support our veterans. I don't feel it is safe in pubs, work and on the street to raise this without getting my head kicked in. At footy matches if you broke wind during a minutes silence a mob would attack you (conversely in one experience they were singing anti Irish songs before and after the minute's silence).

Most of those who fought against facism are no longer with us. Was it not the states' responsiblity to look after the injured and the families that suffered?

And in the last 30 years, all conflicts have been fought by those who decided, with their own free will, to enlist. Is not part of that equation that I may get injured or killed, therefore I want recompense to cover that. Peacekeeping forces is a more difficult equation - and the debate about Syria has shown this is far from simple.

And finally. Choosing to have a family, many at a relatively young age. Again when I could be injured or killed. Is that responsible ??

The above points are gross generalisations, informed in part by casual/anacdotal knowledge. I am not one of these nutters that you hear about in the US who shout abuse outside the funerals of dead soldiers. By all means shoot me down, but please have a good argument. I am smply interested in people's views in what I hope is a relatively safe environment to discuss the issue. And my views on most things (apart Nigel Farage, and Switzerland) can change.

[Mick Mac]

The forces are agents of the state, required by contract to do the will of the government, not necessarily the will of the people and therefore for me at least the pure image of the forces as defenders of the people has been watered down significantly in recent times, possibly 50 years.

[Jah Lush]

How old are you Malumbu? When I was younger I may have stupidly agreed with you out of pure ignorance but I reckon you're nearer my age and you should know better by now. My dad served in the WW2 and all of my uncles and

aunties too. I also have two nephews who have served in the Army. One who spent ten years in The Royal Engineers who served in Northern Ireland, Kosovo and Iraq and I am enormously proud of them. They may have been pawns in politicians games but give them some respect. They have seen terrible things which no man or woman (and let's not forget the women who have also bravely served us) would ever want to go through

Wear your poppy with pride. We'd be fucked without those young men and women who bravely made so many sacrifices for us in two world wars and beyond.

We should remember while the light lasts and in the darkness we should never not forget.

Edited a few times because I'm a bit tipsy and my fingers have turned to sausages.

[silverfox]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> The forces are agents of the state, required by

> contract to do the will of the government, not

> necessarily the will of the people and therefore

> for me at least the pure image of the forces as

> defenders of the people has been watered down

> significantly in recent times, possibly 50 years.

Your problem here Mick is referring to the 'will of the people'. You assume this 'will' is in agreement with you.

Brave assumption.

At the risk of contradicting myself, votes on bringing back hanging, excluding immigrants, disallowing gay marriage, leaving in the EU, and many other topicical matters, would all receive the agreement of the 'popular will'.

You only have to review the local disconnect between East Dulwich Forumites with the 'popular will' over the Alternative Vote fiasco.

Wake up man, countries like North Korea and Iran do not want nuclear capability for philanthropic reasons.

[El Pibe]

"Wake up man, countries like North Korea and Iran do not want nuclear capability for philanthropic reasons."

wtf?

N Korea already have the bomb, are you suggesting that our armed forces should either invade or are somehow protecting us from them, or from Iran (who don't but after Iraq can you blame them for wanting one)?

weird.

----------------------

I can kind of see malumbu's point and jahs point and, predictable, sit somewhere in the middle.

I DO think rememberance is enourmously important and we shouldn't take for granted the sacrifices of the generation who fought the good fight.

My feelings about the great war are really one of sympathy and pity for a generation betrayed, they certainly didn't die for freedom.

Either way I get quite the shivers and sniffles at military cemetries.

Of current conflicts it may be a professional army, but that shouldn't in anyway preclude anyone from having a family, indeed I think it probably makes for better soldiers.

And the rights or wrongs of the conflicts aside I think most people in the armed forces join for good reasons, and by and large conduct themselves with great professionalism and honour, such that we should still retain pride in what they do, how they conduct themselves, respect the danger and stresses they put themselves through and the many positive roles they play in the wolrd (the more constructive engagement in Afghanistan, their work in the FYRs, Sierra Leone etc, policiing pirate infested seas) even whilst understandably having ambivalence or opposition to many of the policies themselves.

[the-e-dealer]

I buy a poppy to commemerate the dead of both sides who died at War. Whether the war was a 'just' War or not the combatents didnt really have a say and were often the victims of poor politicking or leadership. Many Wars are fought to the 'bitter end with no attempt at cease fire or diplomacy once the War has started.

[El Pibe]

Fisk avoiding controversy as usual

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/poppycock--or-why-remembrance-rituals-make-me-see-red-8927751.html

[Mick Mac]

silverfox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mick Mac Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The forces are agents of the state, required by

> > contract to do the will of the government, not

> > necessarily the will of the people and

> therefore

> > for me at least the pure image of the forces as

> > defenders of the people has been watered down

> > significantly in recent times, possibly 50

> years.

> Your problem here Mick is referring to the 'will

> of the people'. You assume this 'will' is in

> agreement with you.

>

> Brave assumption.

>

No I was referring to the Iraq war actually.

[DaveR]

"The forces are agents of the state, required by contract to do the will of the government, not necessarily the will of the people and therefore for me at least the pure image of the forces as defenders of the people has been watered down significantly in recent times, possibly 50 years."

I don't think this is accurate, either in theory or in practice. The head of state is the queen, and the traditional view of the state (in accordance with the separation of powers) is that it is composed of parliament, government and the courts. Do you think that British generals (and British squaddies) would simply accept any orders from the government of the day?

As for Iraq, I think you may be assuming that everybody who now says they were against the war, actually was.

Re poppies, I think wearing or not wearing should be an act of individual choice, and nobody should have to justify their position either way. There was a previous thread about this where I said that I thought schools requiring pupils to wear poppies is wrong, and I still do.

[Saffron]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This may be the most controversial thread I have

> started. I am ambivalent towards poppy day and

> the like. Not remembrance I hasten to add, I am

> old enough that the last World War was still a

> strong memory to the adult population when I was

> growing up.

How can you be ambivalent towards poppy day, but not remembrance? I don't understand your rhetoric. Poppy Day = Remembrance Day, and as such it officially commemorates the end of hostilities.

I understand that some people have objected to Poppy Day because they say it 'glorifies' war. But I think that is an essential misunderstanding of what Poppy Day is. It does not glorify war. It shows recall and respect for the ending of war(s).

[Loz]

DaveR Wrote:

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> Re poppies, I think wearing or not wearing should be an act of individual choice, and nobody should

> have to justify their position either way. There was a previous thread about this where I said that

> I thought schools requiring pupils to wear poppies is wrong, and I still do.

I always wear a poppy, but I agree with DaveR entirely. I think it was Jon Snow that started not wearing one on C4 news and was put under enormous pressure to do so. It has to be a personal choice.

[Mick Mac]

The simple point is that the remembrance of heroes of WWI and WWII, everyday people who gave their lives for our independence and protection is very different from how I see the role of present day armed forces. It's a very dangerous job, with an employer. Generally they are not losing/risking their lives in the act of saving the lives and futures of the people of the UK.

[titch juicy]

Where does the poppy money go?

I understand the symbolic gesture of wearing a poppy to remember those who died in all conflicts, but don't understand why we pay for it? Why does the government not support veterans etc. surely it's a govt decision to get involved in conflicts in the first place?

[the-e-dealer]

The Money goes to help the wounded and their families and the bereaved.

I was shocked to discover that unlike in the US our war disabled are guaranteed nothing.

[titch juicy]

I guess if the govt did provide the support we'd only end up paying through taxes anyway.

This is an interesting read

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith

[DaveR]

"Generally they are not losing/risking their lives in the act of saving the lives and futures of the people of the UK."

....but that's what they sign up for. I don't see that wearing a poppy implies support for any or all examples of post-war deployment of the armed forces, or that latter day servicemen are somehow less worthy of remembrance because, having signed up, they ended up losing their lives in an operation that might not be universally supported. Even in the two world wars there were undoubtedly ops that were stupid or pointless or, arguably, morally wrong, and soldiers who had lots of different individual motivations. That's really not the point.

[Mick Mac]

It is to me.

[malumbu]

Jah Lush

It would help if you read my post.

My points were - should it not be for the state to support veterans not a charity?

Or if you sign up for the dangerous job (in theory of a free will) should there not be significant recompense?

There was a third point about why a significant number of young soldiers start a family rather than waiting until more stable times of their lives. I am sure that there are studies out there which point to insecurity and the need to pass on genes to the next generation.

I can't be bothered to list family members who were in the army either conscripted or through national service.

Anyway, good debate, and some of this has made the broadsheets. We studied war poets for O Level literature (now that dates me) and Wilfred Owen means more to me than most of the others.

I certainly did not indicate any disrespect, but there are other causes that I will give my spare money to, some caused by conflicts that the modern world has not eliminated. Over 40 years after we sent our aluminium spoons to Blue Peter for their Xmas appeal to help families then suffering starvation in Nigeria during the Biafran war.

Incidentally I see that no forces or ex-services have contributed - some first hand views would be welcome. I was involved in a schools' project where service men and women were brought in, together with some older Londoners, to speak to the kids and share their experiences. And what were the kids interested in? The guns!

[El Pibe]

"there were undoubtedly ops that were stupid or pointless or, arguably, morally wrong"

Funnily enough Loz got reported for his comment mentioning Dresden, with some pretty choice terms.

It perfectly valid point if you ask me, surely we should be remembering all the victims of war and remembering what a great folly and monumental waste it is.

[woodrot]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-24848550

As someone who was offered a career choice as a squaddie or a world of dole, I can see OPs point

barely a day goes by now without disabled ex squaddies being shown on teh telly. As much as I think it is important to understand what is going on and be aware of the fallout/ conseqeunces of war, we are in a Squaddie=Diana mindset, and thats truly unhealthy.

The whole redtop inspired help for heroes thing does leave me with a certain unease- it could be argued that its a cynical ploy to flog copy, deftly leeching into real death/diability/emotion.I will leave that open for discussion.

We could argue that squaddies make a career choice, but thats a red herring really, given the backgound and range of real choices available to those who sign up.

I was in Belgium the other week with the kids and we dropped into a remote battlefield/ cemetary on the way back to Calais- have you ever tried to explain what WW1 was really about and try to justify it ? then bring in WW2 and relate its roots back to the grim absurdity of the WW1 settlement - its not difficult to feel utter revulsion at what our previous leaders did to justify the centuries long land grab.

['bout now]

The time of your post Woody is quite sublime....

[Jah Lush]

malumbu Wrote:

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> Jah Lush

>

> It would help if you read my post.

I did. I was a bit pissed when I posted my response though.

[throwaway3661]

Ex-Forces contribution.

I am a regular user here, hence the throwaway login because I want to write freely, possibly against the hivemind. I am an ex-soldier with 15 years? service. Where to start?

"Why should I pay for it?"

Simple answer is, you don't. If you want to donate to the Royal British Legion and wear a poppy, then fine - go ahead. But you must get out of your head the donated money goes purely to Armed and ex-Armed Forces - it doesn't. Think of the families of the Wardens, the Coast Guard, Firefighters, Nurses, the orphaned and the widowed from ALL conflicts. It is those people that the RBL also supports, through financial hardship, loneliness and stress, even today. Care home costs are one such example.

It is a charity like so many others, but with a focus on those already described. Malumbu, with John Snow, might wish to not wear a poppy and such is his right, however in doing so betrays the lack of understanding and work the RBL carries out. To not wear a poppy because you disagree with a certain military Operation in recent times is grossly offensive, in my opinion, to the other work the RBL does.

"You signed up for it..."

Very, very true. However, I did not personally sign up to become "an agent of the state", nor due to lack of employment or educational disadvantage. I do agree these can be factors; however I signed up quite simply to serve my country, and those without a voice. I took my inspiration from a former Naval family member who was one of the most decent human beings one could ever meet. Ask the people of Kuwait, the Falklands, Sierra Leone, Bosnia etc. if they are grateful for the intervention of British Forces. That was my inspiration.

The Military Covenant has been destroyed by successive Governments, both Labour and Conservative and is perhaps the primary reason Help for Heroes, the RBL and lots of others exist. There are also the various Regimental Associations. Governments should look after those it puts into harm?s way to support its policy of the day, but doesn't.

"Starting Families..."

Why the hell shouldn't a member of the Armed Forces start a family? Any one of us can be hit by a bus tomorrow. You can argue that it is a riskier occupation however professionalism, good training and, perhaps most importantly, good kit mitigates most of the risk. The amount of lives and money MOD has thrown away in recent times due to poor equipment is truly shocking and should in a perfect world result in criminal charges but of course that will never happen. The deployment of Snatch and the ?100 million spent to replace it with an even worse coffin on wheels to Afghanistan are unforgivable. More people have been killed in Wimiks than any other vehicle. Duty of care from the MOD is non-existent.

"Personal Contribution.."

I have talked about my perosnal reasons to join, and I am fortunate enough to have come out without a scratch. I do however suffer from depression, tramatic stress and have a failed marriage. But life goes on. I would hope that, if god forbid in the future, I need any form of financial help or emotional support that charities such as the RBL exist.

As a final thought, because I am tipsy now and need to get drunk. I was at the England game yesterday and was stood next to an Argentine couple. We all observed the impeccable and respectful silence, because we were remembering the human cost of military action, on all sides, whether those affected were military or civilian.

That is why I give, and give generously.

P.S. What I find truly, truly offensive is the sight of a multi-millionaire politician who feels the need to claim his electricity bill off of taxpayers, whose own Government contributed to the loss of lives and shoddy equipment described above wearing a poppy. No doubt the cost of which was then claimed back.

Fuck 'em all.

[mxh]

The White Poppy for Peace movement began after the first world war, for people who disagreed with war (for what ever reason be it pacifist,religious,political)but died because of it.

Next year I shall be wearing both White and Red poppy , lest we forget

[uncleglen]

I support the British Legion throughout the year and don't wear a poppy. The lives of veterans are made more comfortable. War is an anachronism in 21st Century Western Democracies really but around the world there are still too many people who are influenced by warmongers so we intervene for the sake of powerless civilians.