Help Neighbours building something

[KidKruger]

well it just HAD to be massive, didn't it !?

[intexasatthe moment]

"Just had a knock from my neighbours to tell me that they are building a conservatory in their garden and that this would involve a wall being built on the boundary for which they would require access to my property.

They said that they have planning permission, but didn't have any plans that they could show me. I am quite worried about what they have planned especially since they are quite big party people...

Would the plans be public anywhere I am in Southwark?

Any advice much appreciated."

doesn't sound like a neighbour dispute to me . More like someone wanting to know ( and worrying because they don't ) about what the plans for a building next door are .

[*Bob*]

If you're going to put a cock on the shed, make it a big one.

Sorry for making light, but aren't these posts a bit mad? I'm reminded of going snowboarding once (back when I was cool etc) and phoning my brother who was at the bottom of a slope. I thought about the signal going up to a satellite, back to the UK, back up from the uk to the satellite and then down to by brother, despite him only being 100 yards away.

These people live next door and will continue to do so long after this sort of dust has settled. How are they liable to behave towards the OP after they discover they've been described and slagged-off on here by a whole load of people who are possibly only getting one side of a story? 'Better? Or Worsch?'

Mad.

[Ron70]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you're going to put a cock on the shed, make it

> a big one.

>

> Sorry for making light, but aren't these posts a

> bit mad? I'm reminded of going snowboarding once

> (back when I was cool etc) and phoning my brother

> who was at the bottom of a slope. I thought about

> the signal going up to a satellite, back to the

> UK, back up from the uk to the satellite and then

> down to by brother, despite him only being 100

> yards away.

>

> These people live next door and will continue to

> do so long after this sort of dust has settled.

> How are they liable to behave towards the OP after

> they discover they've been described and

> slagged-off on here by a whole load of people who

> are possibly only getting one side of a story?

> 'Better? Or Worsch?'

>

> Mad.

You take a satellite phone snowboarding?

Ron70

[*Bob*]

yeah, baby! I'm old skool

No.. but doesn't the cellular network sometimes need to transfer a call via satellite for part of the way in certain situations? Such as in mountainous regions? Read it somewhere or other.

The point remains!

[Jeremy]

It would have been a more relevant story if instead of phoning your brother, you'd told every passer-by how your brother whizzed down to the bottom of the slope, leaving you on your own. Cold, scared, and lonely. And that you never really liked him anyway.

[giggirl]

I had major works done on my house. I have neighbours on both sides (one residential and one commercial). I went to see both sets of neighbours. The commercial neighbour appointed a surveyor to look after their interests. I asked their surveyor if they would also act for my other neighbour (seemed like a reasonable move for continuity and to cut down costs). I paid the bill for both sides, obviously. Everyone was kept happy.

[motorbird83]

That's only partially true. Your neighbours don't need your consent to build on the partywall but they do need to notify you and show you the plans. If you aren't happy you can get surveyors involved to draw up a partywall agreement regarding terms of access etc for the work that needs to be done and creating a condition report so you have an agreed basis should any damage occur to your property. However, the partywall act doesn't contain any provisions that would allow a neighbour to refuse to allow building on the shared boundary to go ahead.

They need building regs sign off on the engineering drawings and they may or may not need planning permission depending on the size of the work they are doing-- some extensions can be done under permitted development and no planning consent is required.

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You can do a simple search by address/postcode

> etc...

> http://planningonline.southwark.gov.uk/

>

> If they are building a wall on your (shared)

> boundary they will need your approval re. Party

> Wall Act...

[motorbird83]

That's not true. Everyone has the right to access their neighbours property to carry out work (including on the boundary). This is a matter of law-- see point 18 in the attached guidance on the Partywall Act

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_partywall_explain_booklet.pdf

Siduhe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Unless your neighbours have a right of access to

> your property built into the property documents,

> they can't insist on access to your land. We live

> in a semi-detached property and there are certain

> rights of access for maintainance and emergencies

> 'baked' into the legal documents between the two

> properties, but these don't extend to improvement

> works.

>

> We did have to do works on one boundary of our

> house - which meant negotiating an agreement with

> the neighbours and a formal party wall agreement

> which was required by law - there doesn't have to

> be an actual wall, if the works being done involve

> excavation near to and below the foundation level

> of neighbouring buildings (as in our case) then an

> agreement is required.

>

> It sounds a bit like your neighbour is trying it

> on - at the least I would ask him/her what basis

> they want access to your land, what works are

> involved and whether they will sign a party wall

> agreement - this is all assuming you are the next

> door property owner (not a tenant).

[Siduhe]

motorbird83 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> That's not true. Everyone has the right to access

> their neighbours property to carry out work

> (including on the boundary). This is a matter of

> law-- see point 18 in the attached guidance on the

> Partywall Act

>

Not exactly. There is a statutory right to access your neighbour's land to carry out work in pursuance of the Party Wall Act. It's section 8(1) which says:

8 Rights of entry.

(1)A building owner, his servants, agents and workmen may during usual working hours enter and remain on any land or premises for the purpose of executing any work in pursuance of this Act and may remove any furniture or fittings or take any other action necessary for that purpose. [my emphasis]

So if you are doing improvement works which fall under the Party Wall Act, and you follow the process in the Act (i.e. putting an agreement in place and agreeing to pay surveyor's costs if necessary) then you can access your neighbour's land and they can't stop you.

What you can't do is just insist on accessing land to do works on your own land as of right without following the Act. You may be able to do it in an emergency, or if you have a contractual/land law right to do so. This is what I was referring to in my earlier post when I said I thought that formal agreement would be required - sorry if not clear.

Edited for spelling

[tiddles]

They must have plans - otherwise their builder will not know what to build. I think it is suspicious that they are not showing you anything. When we had work done to our house we made a point of showing both sides exactly what we planned well in advance so that we could discuss any problems before they arose.

Talk to Southwark planning asap and see what they say - they can also clarify what is and is not allowed within permitted development.

good luck

[motorbird83]

Yes, if you can?t agree terms with your neighbors, you can bring in a surveyor and have them lay down terms of access for work that fall under the Act (such as extensions, new walls, repairs etc). However, it?s wrong to suggest that you can deny access for works that your neighbors have the right to do.

Siduhe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> motorbird83 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > That's not true. Everyone has the right to

> access

> > their neighbours property to carry out work

> > (including on the boundary). This is a matter

> of

> > law-- see point 18 in the attached guidance on

> the

> > Partywall Act

> >

>

> Not exactly. There is a statutory right to access

> your neighbour's land to carry out work in

> pursuance of the Party Wall Act. It's section

> 8(1) which says:

>

> 8 Rights of entry.

>

> (1)A building owner, his servants, agents and

> workmen may during usual working hours enter and

> remain on any land or premises for the purpose of

> executing any work in pursuance of this Act and

> may remove any furniture or fittings or take any

> other action necessary for that purpose.

>

> So if you are doing improvement works which fall

> under the Party Wall Act, and you follow the

> process in the Act (i.e. putting an agreement in

> place and agreeing to pay surveyor's costs if

> necessary) then you can access your neighbour's

> land and they can't stop you.

>

> What you can't do is just insist on accessing land

> to do works on your own land as of right without

> following the Act. You may be able to do it in

> an emergency, or if you have a contractual/land

> law right to do so. This is what I was referring

> to in my earlier post when I said I thought that

> formal agreement would be required - sorry if not

> clear.

>

> Edited for spelling

[motorbird83]

The point really is that if your neighbours are building an extension as in the case of the OP, the work likely falls under the partywall act and they will have the right to access your property to do the work. If you can't agree terms with them on this, an partywall surveyor will dictate the terms to both of you but access will be granted.

Some times the way these matters are discussed, it can create the impression that neighbours have powers that actually haven't been granted to them regarding preventing work being done that they may not like. Unfortunately, often there is not much that can be done if they are following the law.

If its a planning matter, you can object but more than neighbour objections or support, the planners will be guided by planning principles. Of course, the Right to Light is another issue.

[RoLo1]

Worth speaking with Council. Would also suggest you knock on neighbours door and say you have thought about it and would like a surveyor appointed, in accordance with party wall act. The letter their architect/ whoever acts on their behalf sends you, allows you two weeks to decide whether you want to have a surveyor appointed to draw up a joint agreement, and gives timings as to when the work could start at the earliest (if you agree to the work the earliest they could start is a month after they issue the letter, if you contest by requesting a party wall award/ agreement it's two months).

During that time you can still go through it all with the council. Mind you the council should have sent you the plans (as a neighbour), which begs the question as to whether planning permission has genuinely been provided. Planning permission however is entirely separate from party wall act, which is where many people build things without going through due process and can find themselves in legal hot water - this could be the case with them, in which case direct them to the party wall act. A surveyor to carry this out should cost them approx. ?400 (they will have to shop around though, we had a quote for ?2,0000 to do this), so they won't be happy but at least it ensures that the build is done right.

Read through the party wall document (previously posted), you will see that you have right to appeal/ bring to court if they don't honour your rights (and building on the actual boundary is not legit without your say-so, it is joint, building on their side of the boundary could be fine it it's a distance of 5m from your side/ or the foundations don't go a certain percentage height above yours, so the right to light may prove to be the bigger issue for them in this case (and you)!

[alice]

I seem to be wrong

but..

[Penguin68]

there are no rights of access through neighbours property

Unless these are already covered by an existing covenant associated with the property. These would normally give access rights to (e.g. a path) which links properties and may pass through them (I don't think there are any properties in this part of London like that - I know of such a covenant in a York terrace) - or maybe to someone who has owned a large plot of land and has broken that up. The properties sold may have an access covenant associated with them. This can happen with council properties, but normally it is the original landowner and not those who he/ she has sold to who might have those rights. If you are the owner of the property such a covenant would have been brought to you attention by your solictor or legal advisor when you bought (and would probably be listed in the Land Registry).

Certain authorities (i.e. the Fire Service) can require access through your property to undertake their statutory duties.

[LondonMix]

For works covered by the Party Wall Act, reasonable access is granted by law to carry out the work. People have already highlighted the relevant sections of the Act concerning this.

Planning permission and building regs have nothing to do with access. Only the Party Wall Act... Read Sidhue's post where the section is quoted.

[Penguin68]

The OP started the post Just had a knock from my neighbours to tell me that they are building a conservatory in their garden and that this would involve a wall being built on the boundary for which they would require access to my property.

I am not sure that the work as described (building a wall on the boundary) is actually covered by the Party Wall Act - which is about existing shared infrastructure - i.e. the shared walls of a semi-detached hourse or terrace. If I want to build a wall, or a fence, on my land I may request access to my neighbour's property for ease of construction, but I don't believe I can require it, nor pray-in-aid the Party Wall act, since I am not working on a party wall - but creating a boundary wall.

What I certainly can't do, for instance, is to require access to my neighbours land in order, e.g. to bring through construction materials or equipment, nor to install e.g. scaffolding in my neighbours land for construction purposes, without their express permission. Nor, if there is no Party Wall issue can I in fact require access at all (although I can certainly ask nicely for it)

I think the Party Wall thing here may be a red herring where there is no existing shared infrastructure being altered. A conservatory (unless it is huge) is very likely to be covered by permitted development - although it still would be coverd by building regulations.

[motorbird83]

Building a wall on (or even near) the boundary is covered by the Act.

This is 100 percent the case. Building a wall up against the boundary will typically require two notices within the partywall Act- one for new building at or astride the boundary and one for the excavation works associated with constructing a new wall. As these works are covered by the Party Wall Act, neighbors have to grant reasonable access to workmen /engineers etc to carryout the work.

Please see the extracts fromt he Act below

2 What does the Act cover?

?Various work that is going to be carried out directly to an existing party wall or party structure (see paragraphs 4 to 19)

?New building at or astride the boundary line between properties (see paragraphs 20 to 25)

?Excavation within 3 or 6 metres of a neighbouring building(s) or structure(s), depending on the depth of the hole or proposed foundations (see paragraphs 26 to 29).

Work may fall within more than one of the above categories.

19 What about access to neighbouring property?

Under the Act, an Adjoining Owner and/or occupier must, when necessary, let in your workmen and your own surveyor or designer etc., to carry out works in pursuance of the Act (but only for those works), and allow access to any surveyor appointed as part of the dispute resolution procedure.

You must give the Adjoining Owner and occupier notice of your intention to exercise these rights of entry. The Act says that 14 days' notice must be given, except in case of emergency.

[red devil]

What mb83 said, there is no red herring here.

A related side issue is that it's always worth out finding who is currently legally responsible for any boundary, i.e. check title deeds...

[Penguin68]

I stand corrected as regards building on boundaries where there is no previous structure - but does that also apply to erection e.g. of brick walls as boundaries, or of concrete footings to other fencing? This work has gone on around my property (with my happy agreement) but with no suggestion of Party Wall Act notification.

[first mate]

Don't forget the Right to Light legilstion.Itmay or may not be relevant here, but if there is no pre-existing boundary structure of significant height then building one that is substantially higher and adding a further structure by way of a building/conservatory, may seriously impact on the light into your house. This is why you need to see plans which will show projected height of wall plus structure. There are legal firms that specilise in right to light, in your shoes I would be contacting one for some preliminary advice on what might count in your favour.

[motorbird83]

Yes it does Penguin but a lot of people do work without serving notices when they should (often out of ignorance).

This isn't a criminal act just a breach of civil law. The only typical recourse a neighbour has is to get an injunction to stop works in progress. If the work has already be finalised, you could sue for damages but nothing will be granted unless you actually suffered damages. There is no requirement to undo work that otherwise has been carried out legally with respect to planning / builing regs (if planning is required).

A full partywall award isn't a requirement just the notification. An award is only necessary if you go into conflict.

The Party Wall Act isn't very useful. Building Regs already ensures work is being done safely and planning law dictates what can be built. A Party Wall Award only has two benefits in my opinion-- the condition survey protects the person doing work for false claims of damage from their neighbours as the condition of the neighbouring property is fully documented prior to work starting. The other benefit is that a neutral 3rd party can dictate the terms on which the work is done-- times for required access, time of day / week the work can be carried out (8am to 5pm etc Mon-Fri). However, if you get on with your neighbours, you can just do this yourself.

[unlurked]

Report them to building control at council before they ruin your property/enjoyment of your property.

[MissWiggy]

I found this booklet quite useful when I was dealing with the Party Wall Act.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/207310/Party_Wall_etc._Act_1996_-_Explanatory_Booklet.pdf

If works are being done without notice being served then you can either contact Southwark or get in touch with a surveyor who will be able to email you a letter that you should give them asking them to stop works whilst the matter is being considered.

I also found Southwark very helpful when it came to Building Regs and planning.