Trying to buy a house in this area is near impossible

[Jeremy]

It's not ONLY determined by dosh... (e.g. if you don't mind buying an ex-council flat then there are lots more options open to you).

Should everybody be able to live in a nice house in a sought after area of London, should they choose? Whatever your political persuasion.. it obviously doesn't add up.

[PokerTime]

But we are not born into a level playing field either Jeremy and spiralling house prices are making upward social mobility for the poorest impossible. SI get very frustrated at the 'I'm all right so what does it matter?' response of the haves. Everybody works hard, from the poorest paid cleaner to the hopsital consultant, and in many jobs (and parts of the world) the porest work hardest, work the longest hours etc. Their place in the pecking order being nothing more than an accident of birth. So I think it is right to have discussions about how we close that gap, and create a fairer society where the majority can live to a certain level of comfort, and not just the few. Housing is becomming a major factor in the quality of life debate. People need to look outside of their own lives just a little bit more I think.

[Jeremy]

You seem to have drawn some wild deductions from what I said.

Of course we live in an unfair society, and of course it is right to have discussions about how we close that gap. I'm just saying that "buying a house where I grew up" is not a useful measure of equality.

[????]

There's also a bit of rose tinted going on in the Gentrification thing, not all, but huge numbers of white working class born and bred Londoners couldn't wait to get out of this 'shithole'* from the 1960s onwards, this was still around in the 90s

*SE anywhere, E anywhere, most of the Ns even foooking Islington and Notting Hill

[Sophron]

This is true, I've lived here since 1989 and many times neighbours, freinds in the pub etc. have said "I hate it here and cant wait to get out" and to this day people I know who were born here dream of leaving. I agree with ???? it not a right to own property in any area, I moved here years ago coz I couldn't afford to buy where I wanted to - and it's taken 25 years of mortgage and buying and selling in East Dulwich to get my house,

I've stuck with East Dulwich having faith that it would "come good in the end".

[PokerTime]

But what does coming good actually mean? It means middle class more often than not. People move from areas for all sorts of reasons. London is different though and many people get trapped. They come here for work, don't earn enough and then can't leave because the area they came from still has no jobs. As an economy, we haven't progressed at all since the 70's if you look at many parts of the country.

Also Sophron, when you made that first step onto the property ladder house prices were significantly lower compared to salaries. If you were starting out on that same journey today, you'd find it much harder. And THAT is the issue. Even young professionals in London are unable to buy. Thay can't save deposits because too much of their salary goes on rent. If they have no parents with the finances to help out, they are stuffed. We now have a housing market in London that is for the better off only, irregardless of how many hours a person works.

Humans need communities, be that family, friends, whatever. I don't think it is too much to ask for people to be near family and communities they feel comfortable within. The less well paid get stuck with the poorest of everything. Poor schools, poor housing and they pay most proportionately for everything.

We absolutely need to take the steam out of the housing market. A mass affordable/social house building programme would do that and it can be done within 5 years (we've done it before) and that's what people should be lobbying their MPs for. Also, funding should be restored to the decent homes scheme to enable LAs to bring existing stock up to scratch (instead of the poor workmanship delivered by companies tendering for ridiculously low budgets). Changes should be made to the rules on right to buy, buy to let, and foreign purchasing.

Obviously the best way to slow the market would be to let normal market forces do their thing, but for the last 20 years, at the first sign of first time buyers drying up, sucessive governments have changed the rules to keep the first time buyers coming. Help to buy is absolutely the worst policy and when interest rates go up (as one day they will) we could see the same kind of problems as experienced by the US sub prime market. NO-ONE in power is thinking rationally about this issue.

[Sophron]

Well for me Pokertime, coming good meant years of investment and putting my faith that East Dulwich had the potential to rise above the average property price. When I first bought local prices were 10% lower than the London average (akin to somewhere like Beckton today)and achieving some equity in my first property. I couldn't afford to buy on my own so I clubbed together with a freind to get a deposit together and bought a very modest, badly done Victorian conversion and within a year we were in negative equity, I bought them out and lived in it for nine years. So bought at the top (89) and waited it out till (98) to sell at a profit. I think its called a market correction and most likely it will happen again. For me I have invested my life here, married, had kids, done up property, bought and sold etc to build a life, and if I've contributed to gentrification then I'm pleased - it's a nicer place to live than it was in 1989 and the surrounding areas are also looking better. It seems to me that as London changes and grows people who wish to buy, like I did, have to compromise initially but build over time - I still cant live in Marylebone but I'm happy here now!

[PokerTime]

And you couldn't afford to do that now Sophron...that's the point. It's interesting that you cite investment. That is part of the problem....that housing has become an investment over a home. And that long time span you mention that comes accross as being deserving.....doesn't time span also make those born and bread a little deserving too?

People of all economic backgrounds need to live in London to work, and London needs people of all economic levels to work as a city too. Southwark is not Kensington or Chlesea (or Marylebone) and never has been. ED is NOT central London. Yet when something is decided to be done about the poor design and social housing of Elephant and castle for example, the solution becomes one of building sizeable amounts of unaffordable private property over affordable housing. It's profiteering at it's worst, with no interest in community, dressed up as urban regeneration, but regeneration for who? certainly not the previous community, some of whom had also lived there for decades!

We need a range of homes in all areas, not a ghettoisation of London from the centre outwards for the above average earner only, with the poorest being scattered on the fringes.

There was an interesting documentary on TV this week about Brent council having to move larger families out of London because there is nowhere they can live under the Housing Benefit Cap. This has meant displacing families from Brent (hardly a glamourous borough) to cities like Manchester and Birmingham. We are not just talking about the pushing out of the lowest earners from London, we are actually seeing forced deportation of some of the poorest families to cities they've never even been too. Surely the time has come to say that the private market is not going to correct itself unless government intervenes.

[hpsaucey]

PokerTime Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And you couldn't afford to do that now

> Sophron...that's the point. It's interesting that

> you cite investment. That is part of the

> problem....that housing has become an investment

> over a home. And that long time span you mention

> that comes accross as being deserving.....doesn't

> time span also make those born and bread a little

> deserving too?

>

> People of all economic backgrounds need to live in

> London to work, and London needs people of all

> economic levels to work as a city too. Southwark

> is not Kensington or Chlesea (or Marylebone) and

> never has been. ED is NOT central London. Yet when

> something is decided to be done about the poor

> design and social housing of Elephant and castle

> for example, the solution becomes one of building

> sizeable amounts of unaffordable private property

> over affordable housing. It's profiteering at it's

> worst, with no interest in community, dressed up

> as urban regeneration, but regeneration for who?

> certainly not the previous community, some of whom

> had also lived there for decades!

>

> We need a range of homes in all areas, not a

> ghettoisation of London from the centre outwards

> for the above average earner only, with the

> poorest being scattered on the fringes.

>

> There was an interesting documentary on TV this

> week about Brent council having to move larger

> families out of London because there is nowhere

> they can live under the Housing Benefit Cap. This

> has meant displacing families from Brent (hardly a

> glamourous borough) to cities like Manchester and

> Birmingham. We are not just talking about the

> pushing out of the lowest earners from London, we

> are actually seeing forced deportation of some of

> the poorest families to cities they've never even

> been too. Surely the time has come to say that the

> private market is not going to correct itself

> unless government intervenes.

Spot on pokertime! couldn't agree more.

[sedm]

If you are desperate to stay in the area because you have family here there are actually plenty of affordable options just outside but still nearby East Dulwich, particularly if you go ex-council...

[PokerTime]

If you look at the prices of those properties you are still seeing around 400k for a three bedroomed flat/property, with annual service charges on top. How is that affordable to a small family on below average wage?

[Jeremy]

If we sweep aside all the loaded language about families struggling to survive, etc, what are you actually trying to say? That all areas should be priced equally? Eliminate private home ownership? Can you think of any country in the world where people on below average wages can afford to live in any area they choose?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Apparently a garage in camberwell has just sold for over half a million

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/11/most-expensive-garage-in-britain

[PokerTime]

No Jeremy that's not what I'm trying to say, as you well know. We are becoming a country where no-one on a below average wage can afford to buy. It's not loaded language to say that the housing market is over inflated. We have NEVER had an average salary to average house price of 9x. It is ridiculous to suggest that only those with above average salaries should be allowed to live in London, but that's where we might be going. Where do those in the pricier areas expect their nurses, cleaners, bar staff, road sweepers etc to live? There are ways to get the balance right. Rent controls, mass social home builds, etc. Anything that takes the heat out of demand will slow the housing market and return it to more normal market forces (allowing salaries in time to catch up). Private homeowners have no more right to an easy gravy train than the right they say the less well paid don't have to live in their areas.

[Cyclemonkey]

The garage is mad but i suspect it is the land the buyer is interested not the garage. I assume they were given a good tip from the council (the vendor) that palnnign permission for aa new building was likely.

It's true there is some good ex LA stock locally but you'll struggle to get much under ?300,000 even then. Believe me, we've been looking and we've not that tied to a postcode nor do we want a period conversion on Cystal Palace road.

I viewed a three bedroom Ex LA place in Nunhead on at ?300,000 that woudl need a good ?30,000 inviested to make it habitable (it had no internal doors, a broken boiler, no carpets , a bathroom suite that was stained beyond use)

A couple with 10% deposit and an average household income would struggle to afford that.

[Jeremy]

Not sure why this is so difficult to explain. I'll try again.

- I agree that the housing market is ridiculously overheated

- I agree that current housing affordibily is unhealthy

- I agree that people of all incomes should be able to live in London (whether by social housing, key worker schemes, etc)

- I disagree with the assumption that not being able to buy in the specific area where you grew up means that something is fundamentally wrong.

[miga]

.

[Cyclemonkey]

Jeremy,

It's not about being able to afford to live ina specific area - it's about being able to afford to live anywhere in your locality. I agree with you not everyone has the right to afford a double fronted period house in Bellenden Road but there should be mixes of housing for everyone. Too often now when i look at modest flats in the local area (by that i mean Forest Hill, Honor Oak, Peckham, Nunhead, New Cross, Catford etc..etc..) it is advertised as "ideal buy to let investment" and priced as such that you would need at least ?30,000 for a 10% deposit and a household income of over ?50,000 to get a mortgage.

People want stability which is why they look at buying. Maybe people would be less concerned if renting was a viable alternative. Council housing is virtually impossible to come buy and private renting long term is frustrating, expensive and unstable.

[Cyclemonkey]

miga - i can answer your question there. A friend of mine and her partner are looking at Catford at the moment.

They both have decently paid jobs abopve the national average (she is a higher rate tax payer) and they have a ?40,000 deposit. They are struggling to get even a 2 bed flat as they are constantly outbid on the ones they can afford.

[redjam]

Interesting article on what's happening in London here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10744997/Cool-London-is-dead-and-the-rich-kids-are-to-blame.html

[miga]

.

[miga]

.

[Cyclemonkey]

Interesting stuff Miga. It is also interesting the difference that changes in housing tenure have had. Both my partner and I cannot afford to live where we grew up (me a small village in Kent, him Central London) Our parents are not rich or indeed home owners but had secure, long term rented accomodation related to their professions. Something that is vanishingly rare.

Both our Dads tell us they don't know why we don't rent like they have to which the retort is perhaps we would if we had long term tenancies with controlled rents where we got to chose the decor. As it is this sort of thing does not really exist in the private sector anymore.

[EDLove]

Not recent, but still clearly being debated... 'Do the poor have the right to live in expensive areas?'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11674864

[MissKing]

The only way any kind government or legislation could help slow the crazy growth in house prices would be:

1. Build more housing in London

2. Stop selling all the new housing to foreign investors (or impose taxes that make UK property an unattractive international investment)

3. Raise interest rates

I don't really agree with any kind of intervention further than that....