Wanted - Dietician / Nutritionist (Lounged)

[mockney piers]

I'm with Jamma on this one Loz.

There are no double blind tests which definitively prove the efficacy of Acupuncture, though there is a wealth of evidence such as yours that supports the effectiveness of acupuncture for low level pain and even mild depression.

When Jamma says placebo, it shouldn't be taken as tricking a hypochondriac into feeling better, the placebo effect is a very real thing and has genuinely curative effects on the body, it should never be dismissed as a con trick.

However until a study proves that acupuncture is definitively BETTER than placebo it will remain in the woo area.

Here's the Ben Goldacre article on placebo, very interesting.

[lozzyloz]

I'm not denying that a placebo can be a positive thing. Clearly there are overlaps in both Western and Complimentary medicines where a placebo effect exists. Sometimes for the good and sometimes as a con. However, lets not get confused with leeches and Shamanism as I'm talking specifically about Acupuncture, not as a cure all, but, as you mention above, where Acupuncture is proven to work and is becoming an integral part of our accepted health practice.

[mockney piers]

If thousands of years ago people discovered that by getting people to lie down, wafting pleasant scents and giving them some attention while popping little needles in them that do no harm, had curative effects, then that really was a good thing.

If instead of using needles, they had sat them down, talked to them, listened to their problems, wafted nice scents and then prescribed them salt pills, because that way the essence of the salt god can enter the patient and reassert the natural energy flows of the body, then that would have been no less effective, and may have resulted, many years later, in modern westerners espousing the greatness of the salt god, while cynics scoffed.

This would make the treatment no less efficacious, but, just going out on a limb here, it might not be the salt gods or the energy flow, it might just be the rather wonderful placebo effect, which, as you point out, is currently beyond the understanding of science, but it is acknowledged by science to have a demonstrable positive effect.

They're just my last couple of penneth's worth.

[DaveR]

More Goldacre - difficult to disagree, IMHO

"But let's look at the evidence. Diet has been studied very extensively, and there are some things that we know with a fair degree of certainty: there is convincing evidence that diets rich in fresh fruit and vegetables, with natural sources of dietary fibre, avoiding obesity, moderate alcohol, and physical exercise, are protective against things such as cancer and heart disease.

But nutritionists don't stop there, because they can't: they have to manufacture complication, to justify the existence of their profession. And what an extraordinary new profession it is. They've appeared out of nowhere, with a strong new-age bent, but dressing themselves up in the cloak of scientific authority. Because there is, of course, a genuine body of research about nutrition and health, to which these new "nutritionists" are spectacularly unreliable witnesses. You don't get sober professors from the Medical Research Council's Human Nutrition Research Unit on telly talking about the evidence on food and health; you get the media nutritionists. It's like the difference between astrology and astronomy.

These new nutritionists have a major commercial problem with evidence. There's nothing very professional or proprietary about "eat your greens", so they have had to push things further: but unfortunately for the nutritionists, the technical, confusing, overcomplicated, tinkering interventions that they promote are very frequently not supported by convincing evidence."

[monica]

Daver you like Jamma are full of opinions and you obviously like the sound of your own voice or in this case, post. What cracks me is that you are all forming opinions according to this or that body of evidence, and most of the bodys of evidence is paid for by guess, the Pharmaceutical industry. In your blinkered narrowed vision you failed to mention the body of evidence against drugs, lets look at Vioxx a painkiller that literally created suicidal tendencies, then we have a branch of the co-codamol medicine that has also been banned because extensive research showed it caused ulcerations of the GI tract.

Shall i go on, now you are going to ask me what do i know about this, being a mere Nutritional THerapist, well lets see part of my Degree was to study, research and examined on Pharmacology, alongide Pathophysiology, Differential Diagnosis and intergrated Physiology. THe same core modules you would study on a medical degree, so before you carry on with name calling I suggest you do your research more thoroughly. Anyone can read a study or google a study, you as we like to call laymen, would probably have great difficulty interpreting a evidence based study

Sean the question about the job was aimed at miss "I have an opinion and its always right, whatever you say" Jamma

Next

[mockney piers]

Can you give us a taste (baddam tish) of your advice, call it a lossleader if you will, that demonstrates what it is you offer over and above 'moderation in all things' or indeed 'eat your greens', I'm genuinely interested as I've never before considered a dietary specialist whether of the BANT or NHS variety.

[Strawbs]

HI there

Yes I would actually.. I have RSI in my right wrist and have used it previously for that and always found it really relieved the pain.. If you could PM me your dad's details and if he thinks it may help then I can give him a call..

thanks

lozzyloz Wrote:

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> My father is a qualified Acupuncturist (studied in

> China, qualified in UK) and often treats referrals

> from the NHS. Would you consider then that

> Acupuncture has crossed over from the 'Woo' side?

[lozzyloz]

I've PM'd you. Good luck.

[Administrator]

I should have done this a while ago, and with the agreement with the original poster I am now moving this to the Lounge area where the debate may continue.

[SeanMacGabhann]

again

;-)

[DaveR]

Monica

We all have our opinions, and this is a place for expressing them freely. You hold yours pretty fiercely, as might be expected - this is your career. I think it is unhelpful to try and polarise the debate i.e. either you are in favour of complementary medicine or you are some kind of drug company stooge - conventional medicine has been around for a long time, and there is a huge body of uncontentious knowledge.

What is clear is that there are a lot of people who believe that various types of therapies are effective, and plenty of anecdotal evidence to support their views. What is lacking is independent evidence. In the final analysis, if you believe very strongly that something will work (or you are desperate for it to work) it probably will. But aspirin cures a headache whether you give a sh!t or not.

[Brendan]

I don?t see why people have to separate them at all. Childish bickering between practitioners who all feel their way is best is unhelpful and just lends itself to an environment where snake oil merchants can actually get away with flogging useless remedies because they can just use the defense ?well it?s alternative innit, of course the doctors will discredit it?

[cdonline]

If people want to throw money at therapies that give them a lift, well I suppose it's not harming anybody. I believe it's a waste of money, but each to their own.

I'm sceptical, particularly for people who have life long medical conditions, who rely on Western medicine to keep them alive. I can;t help feeling that Complementary therapy preys on these people, offering them hope, without any evidence that it works.

I think it's a scandal.

No matter what training a therapist has, if the treatment they are given is unproven with no proper evidence base, then how can this be ethical?

[monica]

Qualified therapists will not intervene in life threatening conditions, its called complementary for a reason, my opinion is fierce because i know the evidence base behind Nutritional therapy. The cynics on here have a very subjective opinion, and why not, but to the point of Damaging is getting silly. I run a shop fulltime, so Nutritional Therapy is my partime career. I subscribe to many different journals, and I read the lancet where there is evidenced based Research on both Nutritional Therapy and Acupuncture

[mockney piers]

*ahem* waiting.....

;-)

[cdonline]

monica Wrote:

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> Qualified therapists will not intervene in life

> threatening conditions, its called complementary

> for a reason

You mean like HIV? There are plenty of therapists working this client group, offering their wares, with no real evidence that is beneficial or on the reverse, evidence that it is not possibly harmful.

[Jamma]

I'm sorry I've just crapped my colon out laughing at some of the woo on here. I wonder what nutritional therapy can do to help?

Once again Monica I await your answer to the question as to why you are a nutritionist not a dietician if there is little or no difference between them? Imagine if you posted here as a dietician, everyone would respect your views and advice and you wouldn't have to defend your opinions and all that. At the very least it would make your life easier so why not go down that route?

Oh and I'd love to see some links to the Lancet articles on nutritional therapy. And blaming Big Pharma is a bit of a last refuge isn't it? Also something of a red herring as you point out drugs that were tested, found to have a side effect and ultimately banned. Unlike any woo practice which is untested and unregulated so harder to stamp out the genuinely harmful from the benignly batty.

(Also worth pointing out that Denise Mortimore has a PhD in genetics, so not really much use when it comes to nutritional gubbins but this is all beside the point.)

[jumpinjackflash]

Strawbs - you may be better off going it alone for your dietician/nutrician needs, not sure what your goals are but let me try and help ;-):

If you want to lose weight: eat less, exercise more

If you want to eat healthier: eat loads of fruit and vegetables and stay away from the crisps, chocolate and pizza!

both options very boring but it has worked for me!:))

[Strawbs]

jumpinjackflash Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Strawbs - you may be better off going it alone for

> your dietician/nutrician needs, not sure what your

> goals are but let me try and help ;-):

>

> If you want to lose weight: eat less, exercise

> more

>

> If you want to eat healthier: eat loads of fruit

> and vegetables and stay away from the crisps,

> chocolate and pizza!

>

> both options very boring but it has worked for

> me!:))

Trying to eat less, am almost vegan so eat a lot of vegetables as it is, cant exercise all that much as I have exercise stimulated anaphylaxis - I do some biking indoors during the week but that's about what I can manage..

Have sent my food diary off to my friend's mum this week (I think she is a dietician) and will be interested to see what she says..

[jumpinjackflash]

Good luck with it!

[Cassius]

I did a three day nutrition course and found it basically supported what I would have thought was common sense (I know that 3 days is nothing). However some people need to be told what is a sensible way of eating and whether someone calls themself a nutritionist or a dietician - if they are giving good advice and their advice is being followed - what does it matter what they are called. After my three day course I did a project with a friend and advised her to (a) eat breakfast (b) cut down on coffee © drink more water (d) eat her evening meal earlier (ie at 7.30/8 not at 10.30/11) None of these ideas are particuarly novel and she was able to lose some weight and feel more comfortable in her clothes. Sometimes common sense needs to have a label for people to take it on board.

By the way I haven't had acupuncture but I have had dry needling from an NHS doctor, where acupuncture needles are applied to 'knots' in the muscles - pain disappeared within 3 sessions where previously I had been to osteopaths (woo) and occupational therapists (non-woo) for months without such success.

[monica]

Jamma Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm sorry I've just crapped my colon out laughing

> at some of the woo on here. I wonder what

> nutritional therapy can do to help?

> Once again Monica I await your answer to the

> question as to why you are a nutritionist not a

> dietician if there is little or no difference

> between them? Imagine if you posted here as a

> dietician, everyone would respect your views and

> advice and you wouldn't have to defend your

> opinions and all that. At the very least it would

> make your life easier so why not go down that

> route?

> Oh and I'd love to see some links to the Lancet

> articles on nutritional therapy. And blaming Big

> Pharma is a bit of a last refuge isn't it? Also

> something of a red herring as you point out drugs

> that were tested, found to have a side effect and

> ultimately banned. Unlike any woo practice which

> is untested and unregulated so harder to stamp out

> the genuinely harmful from the benignly batty.

> (Also worth pointing out that Denise Mortimore has

> a PhD in genetics, so not really much use when it

> comes to nutritional gubbins but this is all

> beside the point.)

Smile and the world smiles with you, laugh and the world laughs with you. And I will keep on smiling whilst you carry on talking crap, the same crap that came out of that congested colon of yours, because i suspect you are just full of it

Sognodoro Jamma

[karter]

good shooting match this. Personally, I have yet to come across a dietician/nutritionist/nutritional therapist making wild hippy, cure for all claims although i am sure they exist.

Rueworker, good post, you and monica have the right idea and that is the route i would go down when looking for such a service.

[Jamma]

So you won't answer my question Monica? Case closed.

[monica]

Jamma I dont answer to people that i dont actually have time for, or like. So yes case closed dear