Wanted - Dietician / Nutritionist (Lounged)

[amyw]

im sure that health matters have a list of people also.

(though not the same as a recommendation, its a lead!)

[monica]

Jamma you are entitled to say what you want but it comes across rudely.

[ruaworkerbee2]

Nutritionists aren't qualified to give clinical advice in relation to health. Properly qualified nutritional therapists, as well dieticians, are. Obviously you should steer clear of anyone who makes wild claims about curing incurable diseases. A properly qualified and registered nutritional therapist shouldn't do that and should be able to tell you the scientific basis for what they're recommending. The Nutritional Therapy Council (NTC) www.nutritionaltherapycouncil.org.uk/ntcaims.htm was set up by the government to regulate the profession and, hopefully, drive out amateurs spouting hocus pocus nonsense. A therapist's qualifications should meet the NTC's minimum educational standards and their website lists those courses which do. The standards demand an evidence-based approach to nutritional therapy and a level of competency which ensures safe and effective practice (which takes years of study equivalent to a degree and certainly could not be achieved by a short correspondence course). They also require registered therapists to undergo continual training in the form of continuous professional development so that they stay up to date. A properly qualified nutiritional therapist will also be registered with the British Association of Nutritional Therapists (BANT) www.bant.org.uk/bant/jsp/aboutBant.faces. This is the professional body for nutritional therapists. They too advocate an evidence-based approach and define nutritional therapy as the application of nutritional science to health promotion, disease prevention and peak performance. No wild claims there. BANT is recognised by and works in partnership with the Nutritional Therapy Council.

[SeanMacGabhann]

to Strawbs - I don't know you well enough to be 100% sure of comment but I will say this - you don't have a weight problem. I don't want to blow smoke up your ass, but IMO you are a fine figure of a woman. IF you have a problem it's that you have bought into the beauty/size myth that permeates so much of our culture... but again that's just an opinion - don't take it wrong

Jamma is not being rude - direct yes, but not rude. Well maybe a BIT rude. But not wrong

to requote - "you are entitled to your opinion - you are not entitled to your facts"

[monica]

Sean she is being rude, ok ruaworkerbee thankyou i did say this a few posts ago, but i have come to the conclsion that this forum is a carte blanche for a pop at someone or something.

[oblivion]

blimey crikey - you lot really love to have a pop at each other dont ya?

Getting back to the original question. I have heard there is an excellent South African lady nutritionist who is 'associated' with Green & Blue. Go in and ask them about her. I hear she is very good.

[Jamma]

Disagreeing with someone does not automatically make me rude. I may be direct but I find science and facts lend themselves to being straight, hocus pocus and chicanery lend themselves to oily language and obfuscation.

And Strawbs I appreciate your thread has been hi-jacked to some extent but you asked for a dietician/nutritionist. The difference between them is vital to you getting a good recommendation. It's a bit like asking for a doctor/witch doctor. You'll get very different results depending which you go to.

[monica]

Jamma i give up with you, do not dictate to me about science i have spent the last 8 years studying science, from the medical and complementary point of view. You obviously need to get the last word in, good luck living in your lala land of blinkered narrow vision.

[NatashaD]

Monica" but i have come to the conclusion that this forum is a carte blanche for a pop at someone or something."

I have come to that conclusion too, Monica. Jamma's flippant comments have been very arrogant: 'I am right; you are wrong'. For instance Jamma says "I find science and facts lend themselves to being straight".

Pah.

How many times have medicine and science been proven wrong? Many times.

Complementary health is not all hocus pocus. Some therapies work for some people and others don't. Who are we to say that our 'science' and medicine, not to mention nutrition, are always superior to other cultures who rely on more complementary ways of doing things?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Is it not ironic that the people are quickest to condemn others are also quickest to go "this forum is just about people being rude"

Come on - sometimes people are rude but as you well know there is a lot of goodwill on here - I've even had a drink with monica and had our picture taken together with nary a cross word said!

But a question to you Natasha and monica is "why do you think people get so upset by and rude about complementary medicine?"

What is it that gets people backs up - are you able to get that at all?

Science is the accumulation of facts and the study of their efficacy. As we learn more, previous assumptions are proved incorrect and it adapts. It doesn't get defensive - it says "so, this pain killer which numbs the gums before dental work doesn't work you say? Well let's have a look at this thing you've brought in that does work"

"alternative" or "complimentary" medicine either works (in which case it is simply "medicine" and is already part of the arsenal of drugs) or it doesn't. But when I hear the words

I have to double check - it's like the hi-pressure salesmen saying "hey don't be bamboozled by my patter - just trust me"

Where does Gillian McKeith fit in to all of this - is she friend or foe?

And where do maniacal, genocidal men go when they need to disappear? Well they can't become a qualified doctor because that requires examination, rigour and fact-checking. But they can of course set up as an alternative therapist

Ooops

And they can do that because everything is taken on trust.

When the whole topic came up before it led to PAGES of dialogue - some of it often hysterical. (in tone as well as ha-ha)

Last time we had a good chin-wag about this

Is it not possible to have a reasoned debate without everyone sayng everyone else is "rude"

[NatashaD]

Dear Sean

I would not dream of dipping my quill in any more astringent vitriol on the topic.

What I will say though Sean, is that yes, much of western medicine DOES quell the symptoms, but at what cost in terms of side effects? Often it is worth suffering the illness than falling prey to any one of the odious side effects listed on prescribed drugs.

But, of course, not all 'complementary' medicine is effective. But a lot is.

You mention Gillian McKeith. I'm not a fan, although she does speak some sense. It's not rocket science what she comes up with. However, she is not a good example of one who espouses 'healthy living'. I read she is in her early 40s, yet to me she looks in her 70s.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Phew - if we can agree on the Gillster there is hope of common ground!

As for

Sometimes true, but in my example of dental work - to hell with the side effects - I'm not doing root canal au naturel!

[NatashaD]

I do not like the way Gillian McKeith misleadingly calls herself a dcotor, which many interpret as a medical doctor - which she definitely is not. I read in the Guardian she got qualified by correspondence course from a non-accredited American college.

Ms Mckeith has also not been able to cure her back problems with complementary medicine either, and as I said, I think she looks decades older than she is. If, indeed, she is 45, as she says she is.....I mean Nigella and Madonna are older than 'Dr' McKeith.

I share your dislike of this irritating woman, Sean.

But for all my loathing of her, I think she has done the field of nutrition a good service, especially for the nutritionally ignorant people within society - namely those big fat oafs who have to be told that scoffing and guzzling saturated fats and all manner of junk aint good for 'em.

[SeanMacGabhann]

* looks nervously at the calorific content of alcohol *

yes, well let's not be too harsh on overweight people... ;-)

As for McKeith being 45 - I'm with Danny Baker with his "whoah ho ho ho - I'd like a hot dinner for every years she's over 45" schtick

But why dislike just irritating women Natasha - come on - equal rights and all that. Me, Clarkson, a dark alley.... please let it happen

[monica]

Hy Natasha thanks for your comments, Sean I understand what you are saying and of course I know that people will have their views on Complementary medicine, however I have this chat all the time with people who are nice and polite, who are not hellbent on getting their point across never mind who you offend in the process. I am a fan of polite mannered people and im sorry to say that I feel that Jamma is very rude, we have had disagreements before and to be quite brutal she will be ignored by me from now on, just not worth it with some people.

Gillian Mckeith is a self styled guru, she is frowned upon in the Professional world of Nutritional therapy and is not recognised as a Nutritional Therapist. We have great representatives like Marilyn Gelenville who has a PHD in Nutrition from Reading Univeristy. We have Univerities Running Degrees, Mscs ( which i start in September at worcester) and PHDS which I Aspire too once I gain my Msc. We are not Hocus pocus Charlatans, we have a professional body and we have Doctorates. I am proud of my profession and long may it reign

[Narnia]

This topic is much more interisting than I thought it would be. That's not to say I couldn't do with a nutritionist or a dietician!If I wanted to be perfect there's probably a whole list of other people who could help me.......however.....

I do have an opinion on the subject for what it's worth. Whichever way you look at it people are looking for help. Now the next bit may seem a bit off the wall. Still I'll persist as I think it's worth saying. Whatever you may think of babies you were one once. In my experience when they are not crying because they are hot, cold , hungry or with a nappy full of poo, they exude joy. A delight in being alive. They don't make judgements and are as likely to smile at a tramp as they are the Queen. We were like that once. Over the years we lost it and ended up thinking the 'toys' were the thing and not that feeling of wellbeing which became a distant memory if even that. We became screwed up to one extent or another thinking what made us important was how other people saw us or at least how we thought other people saw us. Instead of life being inside us it was gradually removed to being what was outside us. When I was a boy I fell over on a footpath and cut my knee. I needed 10 stitches. My view of orthodox medicine is one of the Doctor who repaired my wound. My view of complementary medicine is that of being advised to wear kneepads if I run on the footpath to avoid it happening. That's not to say the latter can't offer a repair service but mainly I think it's purpose is to get us back in touch with ourselves in a natural manner.Both forms have their uses and anyone who is ignorant on the subject should learn to be quiet.

[Jamma]

Oh this is brilliant. I love the whole we've got phd's and degrees and such like in CAM. Gillian McKeith has a PhD but what's it worth? Not a lot when it came from some internet 'university' or such like. Having letters after your name doesn't mean your views are somehow immediately worthy of respect. Self regulated gobbledygook is no more worthy than unregulated gobbledygook.

And I love the line about 'some things work for some people, some for others'. No. Medicine works for everyone. I'd love to know who these other cultures are with their other ways of doing things. And what their life expectancies are.

I am not accusing anyone of knowingly or willingly misleading people, I'm sure you believe your hocus pocus, but misleading people they are. Why do a course in nutritionism at Worcester? Why not do become a dietician?

As always with woo science it can be undone with a few simple, straight questions. Which those that buy into it choose to ignore.

[Narnia]

Who are you talking to?

[lozzyloz]

My father is a qualified Acupuncturist (studied in China, qualified in UK) and often treats referrals from the NHS. Would you consider then that Acupuncture has crossed over from the 'Woo' side?

[monica]

MEDICNE DOES NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE. When you have had the intelligence to look into the difference in Nutrition and dietics, then we may have a civil conversation until then your blatant rudeness and ignorance will make you look silly. Do not compare the qualified therapist with 3,4, 5 years of study and clinical practice to mckeith. If thats all you have to throw in my face then you really are ignorant.

[Jamma]

I'm not throwing anything in anyone's face but asking a simple question. If there is little or no difference between a dietician and a nutritionist why not become the dietician that is regulated within the NHS rather than a nutritionist which is regulated by BANT, a voluntary regulation scheme and a body that has no-one on its board with a qualification above BSc? (And a number of people on its board with no relevant qualifications whatsoever).

In response to lozzyloz, acupuncture is woo. It's nothing short of disgraceful that such nonsense gets referred from the NHS. But I hasten to add I'm not denying that being treated with acupuncture (or any other woo) can have an effect, it's just that it's a placebo effect and not due to the actual treatment.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Hopefully in the interests of reasoned debate and not having a go at people - but as you mention BANT, does anyone have any comment on Barbara Nash and BANT

article in full

specifically

"Then there are the professional bodies. They have been rather keen to distance themselves from Nash. In the Daily Telegraph, for example: "The British Association for Applied Nutrition and Nutritional Therapy (Bant) which has its own code of conduct, said Mrs Nash was not a member." This is not the entire truth. Nash is advertised on yell.com as a member of Bant. In fact, she was indeed a member of Bant, until 2007.

Membership of Bant carries such privileges as "a listing in the Bant Directory of Practitioners, which is available to the public and entry on the Bant website" and "acknowledgement of professional status by the Nutritional Therapy Council". So endorsed, Nash would once again have perfectly reasonable grounds for a strong faith in her own abilities. The episode with Page on intensive care occurred in 2001. These honours were conferred upon her by Bant in 2005.

"

[monica]

Jamma Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not throwing anything in anyone's face but

> asking a simple question. If there is little or no

> difference between a dietician and a nutritionist

> why not become the dietician that is regulated

> within the NHS rather than a nutritionist which is

> regulated by BANT, a voluntary regulation scheme

> and a body that has no-one on its board with a

> qualification above BSc? (And a number of people

> on its board with no relevant qualifications

Denise Mortimore PHD is on the board of BANT, there you again Jamma talking nonsense, and Sean thanks for helping as usual,

as a Nutritional therapist I am member of the NTC. Look it up when you are googling 101 ways to damage someones livelihood. As a matter of Curiosity Jamma what do you do?

> In response to lozzyloz, acupuncture is woo. It's

> nothing short of disgraceful that such nonsense

> gets referred from the NHS. But I hasten to add

> I'm not denying that being treated with

> acupuncture (or any other woo) can have an effect,

> it's just that it's a placebo effect and not due

> to the actual treatment.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I didn't google the article Monica - I had read it when it was published in the paper (although obviously I did eventually google to provide a link)

I wouldn't worry about your profession either - the "western" medical profession has plenty of opprobrium heaped on it and seems to be doing fine

My profession has tended to be either IT Support or Banking - feel free to ridicule both - I'm used to it and tend to agree

[lozzyloz]

In response to lozzyloz, acupuncture is woo. It's nothing short of disgraceful that such nonsense gets referred from the NHS. But I hasten to add I'm not denying that being treated with acupuncture (or any other woo) can have an effect, it's just that it's a placebo effect and not due to the actual treatment.

You're clearly out of your depth on this one Jamma. Believe me, I'm very cynical when it comes to complementary medicines, but I have had my own experience of using acupuncture for a muscle condition when other conventional therapies had failed to heal me.

But then you could say I'm biased, so don't just take my word for it. How about a leading authority from your side of the woo?

The BMA conducted an in depth study and produced a report with a list of recommendations after concluding that acupuncture works, is safe (safer than many western drugs prescribed daily by doctors) and should be made available on the NHS.

This represents a sea change in the opinion of the medical establishment which essentially means your thinking is way out of step with the latest developments.

BMA Report