20 mph zones on Lordship Lane

[Mrs TP]

Oh dear have I been missing something - how long have they been there?

[DulwichFox]

It was mentioned here some time ago that it a 20 MPH Zone.

But they have only this week put up signs and done the road markings..

DulwichFox

[Twirly]

Which bit of LL please? If it's near the shops, you can't normally do more than 10mph, but if it's further south you can normally go a bit faster, so it would be helpful to know in advance of driving down there.

[spider69]

Twirly Wrote:

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> Which bit of LL please? If it's near the shops,

> you can't normally do more than 10mph, but if it's

> further south you can normally go a bit faster, so

> it would be helpful to know in advance of driving

> down there.

Believe from melbourne grove to the roundabout. Community council passed it at a meeting sometime ago. 16 people wrote in for it 3 against.

Cllrs believed it was needed because of the amount of people shopping in this short stretch of road. They dont have to consult people

[Twirly]

So mainly where the shops are. Thanks for that :)

[Loz]

They could put 70mph signs up for all they are worth. Still couldn't do more than about 10mph.

[steveo]

That would be fun

[DulwichFox]

With all crossings and traffic lights no one ever gets out of first gear.

All the accidents have been further up between Police Station and the Plough

Which I believe is still 30 MPH

Just Southwark Council doing what it does best..

Does any of them even know where Lordship Lane is ??

Wasting money where it is not needed

Looking at their little maps on their little screens in their Air-conned offices.

DulwichFox

[Mrs TP]

I noticed them up near William Rose butchers too - I think it is to encourage us to gawp at the long queue.

I am just not sure if it was two separate zones or one running from approx Neros to the butchers.

The first bit from the roundabout is stuffed anyway so rarely any danger of reaching 20 mph but you can usually pick up a bit once passed the crossing by Iceland - no more!

As long as they are new - I have been within the law. I was just having one of those 'oh lordy have these been here for 6mths+ and I have never seen them' moments.

[James Barber]

The new 20mph speed limit goes from goose green roundabout to Melbourne grove.

This section of road does have a high incident rate of crashes. Please see www.crashmap.co.uk

In our area it is one of the most collision prone in East Dulwich. Lordship Lanes further south does have crashes but not the same incidence rate and largely are junction design issues.

As said before on this forum further south from the new 20mph speed limit area of Lordship Lane is the border between East Dulwich ward and Village ward. As Village councillors were unable to agree to Melbourne Grove between East Dulwich Grove and Lordship Lane being 20mph despite the speed cushions already in place they were certainly not able to agree Lordship Lane from Melbourne Grove southward to become 20mph.

[spider69]

James Barber Wrote:

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> The new 20mph speed limit goes from goose green

> roundabout to Melbourne grove.

>

> This section of road does have a high incident

> rate of crashes. Please see www.crashmap.co.uk

> In our area it is one of the most collision prone

> in East Dulwich. Lordship Lanes further south does

> have crashes but not the same incidence rate and

> largely are junction design issues.

>

> As said before on this forum further south from

> the new 20mph speed limit area of Lordship Lane is

> the border between East Dulwich ward and Village

> ward. As Village councillors were unable to agree

> to Melbourne Grove between East Dulwich Grove and

> Lordship Lane being 20mph despite the speed

> cushions already in place they were certainly not

> able to agree Lordship Lane from Melbourne Grove

> southward to become 20mph.

A little misleading as the majority of incidents shown are mostly slight and the figures go back to 2005 .Just how are these figures logged and confirmed.

[Pugwash]

I was doing 20 mph in this area yesterday and a Pratt decided to overtake me about 40 mph - I was going extra slowly as a bus was about to pull out - this did not deter the pratt. I later caught up with him at Dulwich Library in fact I was right behind him so his speed did not make any difference.

[richard tudor]

Dear Cllr Barber

Have just read this 20mph posting and am confused.

Just walked from Melbourne Grove past Kwikfit and can see no markings or signs that indicate it is now a 20mph stretch.

Yet from Goose Green roundabout towards the Plough 20mph markings are on the ground. Coming down to the Goose Green roundabout from the plough there is a sign that says 30 mph ends. Always thought this bit of LL from the plough was 30mph

What is the correct explanation. Or have the signs been painted wrongly? DulwichFox said the signs and road markings went up last week

Look forward to hearing

[Twirly]

I assumed it was the other end of Melbourne Grove - it comes out on Lordship Lane quite far south, near Whateley Road. The end near Kwikfit actually comes out on Grove Vale, not Lordship Lane.

[richard tudor]

Twirly Wrote:

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> I assumed it was the other end of Melbourne Grove

> - it comes out on Lordship Lane quite far south,

> near Whateley Road. The end near Kwikfit actually

> comes out on Grove Vale, not Lordship Lane.

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The new 20mph speed limit goes from goose green

> roundabout to Melbourne grove.

[Twirly]

Yes, the southern end of Melbourne Grove that intersects with Lordship Lane. Am sure James will clarify.

[James Barber]

20mph on Lordship Lane between Goose Green Roundabout and it's junction with southern end of Melbourne Grove opposite the now closed East Dulwich Police station.

Hi richard tudor,

You were walking along Grove Vale from its junction with northern end Melbourne Grove. You weren't on Lordship lane.

Not ure about where you've said you spotted exiting 30mph. If it was close to the junction of Lordship Lane with Whateley Road/southern end of Melbourne Grove then that's correct.

Hi spider69,

Yes the majority were slight. But five were serious. The costs of these is huge according to DoT calculations.

If you compare numbers and severity of crashes this now 20mph section of Lordship Lane has more than other local roads.

DoT report https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/9275/rrcgb2011-02.pdf states cost per minor crash per injured person at ?14,611 alone. or average cost per slight injury of ?23,136. So the annual cost over time of crashes along this section of Lordship lane is huge.

[spider69]

Thank you for reply. But the figures will be high if you take reports from 2005 to now on a major traffic road to a local road. Ll is not what you call a local road. How are the incidents reported and classified.

Govt costs. Think of a number ad put it in a report. ?14000 for a minor accident. What is a minor accident. Bent bumper

[silverfox]

Slightly off topic but I'll relate my story nevertheless.

Recently I had to drop people off at Paddington station around 6.30am in the morning and then head towards the City for an 8am start.

On the way back East there were a number of diversions (presumably due to Crossrail work).

At one diversion Around Old Street, I turned right and speeded up to around 25mph. Then I saw on the road the marking 20 encircled by a ring. If there was an advance warning I didn't notice it as I turned into the road. The time cannot be more than 7.15am on a Sunday morning. I must admit I found it difficult to stay at or under 20mph with my car but I tried my best. There was nobody else on the road and I felt like I was driving in slow motion. I then saw a sign - something to the effect 'Islington, London's first 20mph Borough'.

Call me stupid but what has that council got to be proud of there? It is probably costing the London economy billions of pounds in lost revenue/productivity because of the delays this foolhardy decision is causing.

On topic - James you should be ashamed if you backed this idiotic 20mph speed limit on Lordship Lane

[Mrs TP]

What is also needed are signs telling pedestrians to cross at the crossings. How many of the RTAs are people being run over from jumping out between parked cars, near buses etc. Yes if you are driving slower you have more chance of stopping, doing less damage etc but there are plenty of crossings so all pedestrians should use them.

I don't mind the zone, which seems to have more signage every time I drive down there but I do object to pedestrians jumping out all over the place when there are endless crossings.

[richard tudor]

Please find panel members below:

Cllrs that were at community meeting regarding 20 mph discussion

Councillor Helen Hayes - College Ward - Labour

Councillor Lewis Robinson - College Ward - Conservative

?

Councillor Andy Simmons - College Ward ? Labour

Councillor Robin Crookshank Hilton - Village Ward - Liberal Democrat

?

Councillor Toby Eckersley - Village Ward ? Conservative

Councillor Michael Mitchell - Village Ward - Leader of the Conservative Group

Councillor James Barber - East Dulwich Ward - Liberal Democrat

?

Councillor Jonathan Mitchell - East Dulwich Ward - Liberal Democrat

?

Councillor Rosie Shimell - East Dulwich Ward - Liberal Democrat

[rch]

Correction - I didn't participate in this item as it was in the second half of the meeting and I gave my apologies and left at the break.

[mynamehere]

I was at the south end of Exhibition Road, South Kensington Tube. There's a "Dutch" scheme in operation: cars, pedestrians, fountains, restaurants, cyclists. It all added up to a great deal of money and beauty and esprit de corps flowing plentifully in all directions. The cars were going about 5mph. So let any politician who's afraid to be counted as voting for 20mph stand up to be counted down at the next election. As was noted somewhere above: pass me at speed and I'll see you not so far up ahead... in a city at least. Just slow down as the song says. Make the cars do 5mph on LSL and let the pedestrians walk in the street.

[Loz]

Here's a pretty good summary of some independent views on shared space.

http://www.theinformationdaily.com/2013/04/09/is-shared-space-the-future-for-city-centre-roads

Some experts say it's good, some not so sure. Some of the comments from different people:

- "shared space is safer and allows higher average speeds"

- "Ashford?s shared space scheme to be unpopular with pedestrians who felt less safe"

- "shared space can make people uncomfortable ? in particular cyclists ? but (he) maintains it is safer."

- "drivers and cyclists tend to avoid a shared space in Haren, near Groningen ?because it?s unpleasant?"

- "Exhibition Road is popular with tourists and restaurateurs but not with drivers who avoid it, meanwhile Queen?s Gate which runs parallel is ?rammed?. It suggests drivers generally avoid areas that attract pedestrians."

- "in the Netherlands shared space has been most successful in small villages with very little traffic. "

- ?Streets are hugely complex and their design must take that into account.? Dales says shared space has good principles but warns ?No kind of design dogma has ever served our towns and cities well.?

So, it sounds popular (if a little weird) for pedestrians, but drivers and cyclists try to avoid the area. That would mean Melbourne Grove and, more likely, Crystal Palace Road will bear the brunt. Or, people will start to avoid ED altogether. All this will please LL shopkeepers (not).

[James Barber]

Hi silverfox,

Why should I be ashamed?

average speeds will come down to safer limits. Fewer people will be injured and the severity will reduce.

Over the last five years the total costs for crashes on this section of Lordship lane are estimated to be ?1,332,045. This is based on DoT costs which are UK averages. I would suggest the acutal cost for London would be even higher.

Often on this forum you suddenly see a thread that lordship Lane is closed for a number of hours while the mess from a crash is sorted out. We're all paying too high a price for such crashes and this measure of 20mph will help reduce it. But of course people who never get injured or killed never get to say thank goodness it was done.

I think you should be asking why Village ward councillors have refused 20mph along the section of Melbourne Grove they share with East Dulwich ward.

Mrs TP,

The 20mph speed limit has meant many signs from side roads have been removed. Overall signage has been significantly reduce along that section of Lordship Lane.