The Man with 20 kids BB1 Monday night

[*Bob*]

Scrounging off the state is open to anyone so there's no need to feel jealous of this man and his cushy life.

So, if anyone here fancies fathering a dozen children, bringing them all up on benefits, living in squalor and basically having a totally shit life - go for it.

[david_carnell]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Come off it d_carnell, that's just the kind of

> cr@p that Cameron is talking about. Are you

> seriously suggesting that if you are not a

>

> "well educated, nutritionally aware, middle-class

> male with a stable, well paid job and a support

> network consisting of similar"

>

> then you don't know that eating pies makes you

> fat?

Yeah, I suppose you could be a woman. ;-)

With an entirely straight-face (so you don't mistake this for irony) - yeah, a bit. I think there are degrees of ignorance but no doubt this fella was pretty close to the bottom of the spectrum. And ignorance breeds.

> As for the neighbour/hood point, if by paying

> benefits and providing housing centrally you

> effectively remove interdependence from

> communities then you also remove a powerful

> incentive for people to respect and look out for

> each other. You mentioned rental properties - go

> look at some and compare them with owner-occupied

> places. It's all about responsibility, decisions

> and consequences - exactly Cameron's point.

How do I know which are rental and which owner-occupied? How do you? Would you replace council housing and incapacity benefit with some form of community support network? From the looks of things on this thread, god help anyone who findsd themselves unemployed or with a booze prblem in East Dulwich.

But, not for the first time, Mr McG does says it rather better than I did and in fewer words.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Cheers but even if the first bit were true, the 2nd surely isn't

I think it's *Bob* who made the point best, and definitely using fewer words

Not for the first time either - before anyone goes for the obvious "this is PC gone mad" - I'm not condoning his (subject of documentary) actions. He's an idiot - but then, I am once again moved to remind everyone of the definitive take on society:

The world according to *BoB*

[clive3300]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And his argument is illogical:

>

> Social problems do have a huge influence in some

> situations ---> These social problems are caused

> by individuals -----> These inidividuals suffer

> from social problems ------> These social problems

> are caused by individuals ad infinitum

You are deliberately misunderstanding his argument. You are making out that individuals have no control whatsoever, nor any ability to break this chain. It is perfectly possible for someone born into a relatively bad situation to get themselves out of it with a little / lot of effort. Unless you are actually disabled, there is IMO no excuse for not getting getting out there and improving your lot

In the UK the "underprivileged" have the following privileges that are not shared by the vast majority of the worlds population:

- they are born speaking (by far) the most important language in the world for business or culture

- reasonable accomodation is guaranteed and there is no threat of starvation. The water is clean

- medical care is universal and free

- they are born into a stable democracy that has had no wars or serious strife in decades

- the electricity works, the rubbish is picked up

- the FREE school system at its worst can still give a proper education and a qualification recognised throughout the world, providing you try

- libraries are free, good and everywhere. the internet is available there

- reasonable results at school opens up hundreds of colleges and universities that are essentially free and whose qualifications are universally recognised

- when finish studying you have at your feet the 4th largest economy in the world, the financial centre of the world at the end of 12 years of continuous boom and labour shortages. The currency is strong and convertible. Banks are stable. Inflation is very low

- you will have no restrictions on what work you do, or on opening a business

- if you dont like it here, you can work anywhere in the EU - the worlds largest economic block; as well as many other countries

- if you strike a rough patch, a myriad of council and national organisations exist to help you find homes, work, further education at no cost to yourself

I repeat - these are privileges not shared by the vast majority of the worlds population - what more do you want?

And yet many people can do is whine that they are underprivileged and need to eat McDonalds 10x a day.

I know some REALLY underprivileged people who have been born into exactly ZERO of the above advantages and today run companies. They are the salt of the earth in comparison.

[david_carnell]

Hurrah for *Bob* - someone who probably has much sympathy for our documentary star as a fellow lie-about-all-day-in-my pyjamas-sort-of-fella who composes amusing ditties about Strongbow!

In fact, where was this documentary filmed again?

[MadWorld74]

How can social services say that the children were fine and not in danger? They were living in filth.

But because we should be greatful that we have electricity, water, rubbish collections ......shouldn't we stand up and say that these children did not choose that man as a father. Ingnorance breeds as another has put it.

If we were dealing with the REALLY underprivileged, then maybe the 'home' those kids were living in would be acceptable. But this is the UK and there is no excuse. If he and his good wife want to exist in those surroundings, let them. But give the kids a better chance in life. Otherwise they will end up like him and have God knows how many kids between them, carrying on the family tradition.

Social services did go round on several occassions and saw nothing to report about. F*ck me!!!!! somebody please tell me that is a joke.

[MelbourneGr]

I couldn't help but feel sorry for the kids.

The dad looked about 106 years old and was absolutely pathetic at controlling his kids.

What's with making his wife push the pram stacked with Cider up the hill!? She looked about 40 years younger, but also prematurely aged.

How can he be an alcholic? He doesn't even do anything! Stress free life.

[PeckhamRose]

Darling bf after many years of work has signed on in Peckham for the 1st time. Child free and mortgage free, he is entitled to ?60 a week. For everything. He asked about retraining and they told him they don't know anything about that other than he's not allowed to even apply for 13 weeks. The signing on process was absolute hell and involved repeated interviews asking the same things.

My view is there is as much crime (Social and otherwise) being committed by nice middle and upper class people and companies, it's just a different 'invisible' type of crime. Corporate crime and environmental crime for example.

But I have come across so many of the sort of man in the BBC programme in my work, that I am very worried about where my politics is heading. Having said that, isn't there supposed to be a problem with the sperm count in the nation?

[lozzyloz]

clive3300 do you live in the real world?

It's very easy to reel off the privileges available to all and sundry but it's really not that simple. there are intelligent people from poor backgrounds who don't make it in life despite the abundance of privileges. Have you ever been raised by an alcoholic, heroin addicted prostitute of a mother? Beaten daily to the point of limbs being broken by a verbally and physically abusive father? Stripped of any self esteem from the people that are meant to raise you? Overlooked because of the colour of your skin, your accent or place of origin? Taken into care and abused by the carers? Housed in a ghetto? etc etc

There are endless reasons why some of the 'underprivileged' don't always make it from the bottom of the pile. The ones that do are exceptional people. The ones that don't are stereotyped as MacDonalds eating SS scroungers.

[NatashaD]

Thanks for the Idiocracy link Sean.

[Brendan]

And privilege is entrenched through and unfair education system making it more difficult to rise out of poverty.

[clive3300]

lozzyloz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> clive3300 do you live in the real world?

>

> It's very easy to reel off the privileges

> available to all and sundry but it's really not

> that simple. there are intelligent people from

> poor backgrounds who don't make it in life despite

> the abundance of privileges. Have you ever been

> raised by an alcoholic, heroin addicted prostitute

> of a mother? Beaten daily to the point of limbs

> being broken by a verbally and physically abusive

> father? Stripped of any self esteem from the

> people that are meant to raise you? Overlooked

> because of the colour of your skin, your accent or

> place of origin? Taken into care and abused by the

> carers? Housed in a ghetto? etc etc

>

> There are endless reasons why some of the

> 'underprivileged' don't always make it from the

> bottom of the pile. The ones that do are

> exceptional people. The ones that don't are

> stereotyped as MacDonalds eating SS scroungers.

I dont live in fluffy bunny land if thats what you mean - I didnt have a big chunk of those privs and have had to fight for many years to get where I am. You are using the "Louisa" stereotype of anyone comfortable MUST have a private education and adoring wealthy parents. No one ever really does it themselves.

There are millions of people on benefits in the UK. You telling me they all have this horror story? You cannot use an absolute worst case to explain them all.

Of course there are geniune cases where the welfare state SHOULD support. The reality is most of these people could do more to better their lot but CHOOSE not to.

[*Bob*]

If 'the social' paid for your Ocado run, wi-fi, a couple of motors, two holidays a year, childcare and a loft conversion we'd all be on it, asserting our right to entitlement - just like him.

Unfortunately, it doesn't. All it gives you is a shit life. Yes, It's irritating that this bloke doesn't seem to mind (after all - we'd all feel better if he cried himself to sleep every night on a urine-soaked mattress, wouldn't we?). Justice! Job done.

You can tell yourself that you're not like him because you've got more self respect blah blah blah, but the reality is that you're not like him because you don't want a shit life.

[MadWorld74]

And why do you think they CHOOSE not to, Clive3300?.....just out of interest...

[lozzyloz]

clive3300 I'm not talking about your personal circumstances nor did I refer to privately educated and wealthy people. I'm referring directly to your point that, "Unless you are actually disabled, there is IMO no excuse for not getting getting out there and improving your lot."

I think you'll also find that once you strip away the number of people that are legitimately on benefits (also excluding those on child allowance) that there are not MILLIONS abusing the system. Granted there may be thousands which is also a sizeable minority.

[DaveR]

"....you don't want a shit life"

And so we come back to the beginning again - for the majority of people, it's about choice

For the record, I agree with *Bob*'s now legendary "cock-based" analysis of society - I would just add that we can do without anything that tends to increase the "cock" percentage over time.

[clive3300]

MadWorld74 Wrote:

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> And why do you think they CHOOSE not to,

> Clive3300?.....just out of interest...

Because they are lazy, obviously? Why else would an otherwise capable person sit in a crappy situation? Because to study for years at school, get good results, put yourself through university, get a difficult job, pay your way the whole way isnt so easy is it? Especially if all your mates and your family are on the social, why bother eh?

If people are GENUINELY incapable of work because of disability (whether physical, mental or psychological) of course the state SHOULD provide long term support - its the moral and civilised thing to do. However I believe its far too easy to claim you cannot work or contribute in some way to society - e.g. at least do volunteer work, self study surely. I wonder how many of these 'underprivileged' make any effort to really contribute to society.

Please reread the last para a couple times if necessary before flaming me.

[MadWorld74]

The cock percentage in South Wales is now off the chart.....

[SeanMacGabhann]

Clive - are you being flamed? I thought people were just disagreeing. I haven't seen much flamage

DaveR: but "choice" in that sense is just a pretty modern buzzword

To make the choices this guy has made, it must be obvious that damage has been done somewhere in the past. I suspect choice is too strong a word - he has just fallen through circumstance after circumstance, unable to look after himself. I'm not saying laziness isn't playing it's part but it's too simplistic to blame everything on that

It doesn't mean I like the guy - but on the plus side he doesn't seem to be involved in any dangerous criminal activity. Forced to fend for himself isn't it possible he lacks the social skills to hold down a real job and might turn to crime - maybe, for the small number of people like him , this whole benefit system works in all of our favour?

[*Bob*]

MadWorld74 Wrote:

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> The cock percentage in South Wales is now off the

> chart.....

That's right - look at all the silly lazy welshmen and their silly decimated mining industry. Ha Ha Ha!

[PeckhamRose]

There are so many things wrong with the benefits system.

Rich people can get child benefits. Why? They don't need it.

Rich people over 60 can get free prescriptions. Why? They can easily afford them.

If you're diabetic you can get them free.

If you're asthmatic or heart condition or some other condition that requires you to have medication just to stay alive, tough. Still have to pay. Even on a low income. But curiously diabetes is singled out.

The point I think some are making is that if the man and people like him did not drink and smoke but saved all the money instead, err.... he'd do what, exactly?

[MadWorld74]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> MadWorld74 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The cock percentage in South Wales is now off

> the

> > chart.....

>

> That's right - look at all the silly lazy welshmen

> and their silly decimated mining industry. Ha Ha

> Ha!

....hmmmmm I wonder why the character Vicky Pollard was brought about, and why she is so well known on our TV screens. The writers must have found something 'funny' when writing about her silly, lazy, fat, Welsh arse, musn't they?....

[*Bob*]

MadWorld,

If you're using characters form 'Little Britain' to further your understanding of social history and its impact on the benefits system in Britain, then you really do need help.

Especially as the character you mention isn't even Welsh.

[MadWorld74]

ha ha ha.........She's not Welsh. I've just fallen off my perch.

Kinda blows my rant about the silly, lazy Welsh clean outta the water doesn't it, *Bob*. (Seeks help)

[Asset]

To make the choices this guy has made, it must be obvious that damage has been done somewhere in the past. I suspect choice is too strong a word - he has just fallen through circumstance after circumstance, unable to look after himself. I'm not saying laziness isn't playing it's part but it's too simplistic to blame everything on that

Exactly, exactly. I doubt he feels particularly good about himself and must feel pretty hopeless, hence the alcoholism. ?500 a week doesn't go far if you've got that many kids either.

It's easy to judge and I didn't see the programme and the situation sounds horrendous but who are we to say the kids would be better in care?