Homophobia compared with racism

[muffintop]

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2) Where black people ARE discriminated against, it's often CLASS and not race that's the main factor. (This doesn't make it any better, but is important)

3) The problem with young black males' lack of role models (see my post above about the black male crisis of masculinity).

I'm sorry, I could not disagree with you more, completely and utterly WRONG. And last I will say on subject matter.

[KalamityKel]

James, if you're going to mention race please stop aiming your comments only at "black people". There are many different races in the world and I find you continuously singling this particular race out offensive.

[James]

I don't see what is so controversial about this. Please expand Muffin, I am interested to know your thoughts.

For the reasons I described earlier, far fewer black people have broken into the middle and upper-middle classes. This is a historical factor. Privilege and wealth are entrenched and handed down in this country - just as poverty and social exclusion is, irrespective of race. The relatively small black middle class in Britain show this country up for its lack of social mobility in general. Put simply, if you're born into poverty in Britain you'll probably stay poor, whether you're white or black. Sad but true.

Secondly, young black males' lack of role models. I think it's really sad that people won't address the cultural issues here for fear of being seen as un-pc. For as long as we ignore the elephant in the drawing room, too many black boys will continue to be drawn into a miserable life of crime. This is not racist; it is the very opposite in fact. We are talking about cultural and historical factors here that have their root in the evils of colonialism and slavery.

[James]

Btw Kel what a silly remark to make!

[KalamityKel]

I think u need to re-title your thread :-|

[pk]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> 1) Gay working-class people. A huge proportion of

> these people have to keep quiet about their

> sexuality

i guess that some might see this as a luxury - being able to 'keep quiet' when it's convenient/necessary

> All this goes to show that there are complex

> cultural factors to take into account.

all these issues re prejudice of any kind are very complex - it's why i think to simplify them to say one type is better/worse than another is never really going to work

[KoolBananas]

James please explain WHY Kalamity's remark is silly? It's a very valid point when it comes to the dreaded topic of "racism". It's not just black people who suffer from racist issues and certainly not in the class circles you keep mentioning. I dont know, maybe my circles and backgrounds (people I associate with) are different from yours hence I can not identify with the problems you see on a daily basis.

Making issues such as you are with "black people" is really diverting the attention away from the initial topic of this thread... gay people find it harder than those of different ethnic backgrounds? Really? Doesn't seem that way by your own replies.

[James]

Um, actually the title of this thread is "homophobia compared with racism."

It is not "homophobia is worse than racism." Read it properly!

I am not "making issues" with black people. I am explaining waht I see as profound and interesting differences in people's experiences.

Try reading my posts properly instead of letting rip with your knee-jerk attacks and you'll se that we are pretty much 'on the same side'!

[KoolBananas]

We're on the same side? How one earth do you figure that mister?

[Rico]

The interesting bit is how racial and religious 'minorieties' (I use 'quotes' because some are actually majorities in pure number terms) are usually the loudest to complain about mistreatment (fair) and the worst homophobes.

While many attack James for suggesting one may be worse, and I don't think he's said that, truth is what makes homophobia more challenging is you get no solidarity from many other oppressed groups.

It's hard to be gay. It's hard to be black. Try being black and gay. Poor souls.

[James]

Well, I am assuming that like me you would like the world to be a fairer place. That you don't want to live in a country where people are treated differently, have different life-chances or suffer harrassment because of their sex, age, sexual orientation or the colour of their skin.

Is that right?

[James]

Rico - yes, I have been out with black guys before and it's not easy being black and gay!

[KoolBananas]

Yes James I would dearly love the world to be a fairer place and if you agree too then I kindly ask you to accept/respect other people's (not meaning mine but generally throughout this forum) opinions. Even if you agree or not there is no need for upsetting fellow human beings.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I've had my run-ins with James in the past only to find that, more often than not, it's been a misunderstanding of tone.

I've not met the guy (to my knowledge anyway) but I suspect we would get on just fine (notwithstanding dogs... ooh is he ever precious about them! ;-) )

I can see why people have got upset with some of the posts, but I think the truest one is when he says that he does not want to "live in a country where people are treated differently, have different life-chances or suffer harrassment because of their sex, age, sexual orientation or the colour of their skin. "

I think the thread started after Muffintop's post re: the 2 commuters comments and James felt that the general levels of support shown wouldn't have been as forthcoming had he post about the latest heckle he received. I would disagree with that - I reckon this place, being full of wooly minded lefties (allegedly - I reckon the balance is much wider than that) would have been quick to rally and offer cups of tea. But by starting this thread, inviting comparisons re: racism etc... is it necessary? It feels a bit like a meeting in Tooting circa 1979 ( ok, I was 11 and living in a different country in 1979 but hey! I read my NME)

[James]

KB - don't understand why what I've said is upsetting. Sorry. To be honest I feel a bit ganged up on by people who don't actually understand what I'm saying.

Sean - diplomatic and sage as ever. I think you have understood perfectly what I meant! Thanks for your generosity of spirit.

[KoolBananas]

Sorry James I dont mean to say I find anything in particular you have said upsetting to me personally only that, and again I'm speaking across the board not just on this thread, that your tone/response seems to have upset a few people. Also, your tone of writing suggests who have grumbles with several forumites without a justified reason (disagree if you like) and so think some of your comments towards others are a bit unnecessary - quick to judge and very denfensive on yourself..

I know I writing in circular patterns here but I find it difficult communicating with you and not end up in an argument.

[citizenED]

"the measure of intelligence is the capacity to hold two seemingly conflicting ideas in your head at the same time" some bright spark wrote something like that somewhere at some time. I thnk it pertinent here.

I'm impressed by people's attempts to make an even handed assessment of the effects of homophobia and racism. a tricky equation if ever. I'm less impressed by any post that seems to want to diminish the effect of either.

[KalamityKel]

Wow deep thinking there Citz and agree whole heartedly.

James it would seem we both have gotten off the the wrong feet on many many many occassions here. Whilst I don't appreciate your over judgemental attitude towards me (no please don't argue about it as clearly this is how I personally percieve it) I would like to express I have no issue with you at all.

You may think others are attacking you, I assure you not coz of ur sexuality and such, but this is open debate and opinions do tend to fly around in all directions from both sides of the "argument".

Just thought I would point that out :)

[citizenED]

I pretty much abhor any hateful comments. Racist, sexist etc. It's not always what is said - it's the way it is said. We've got into some very protracted debates on this forum over that - *Bob* vs Atila springs to mind - how that all blew up because the comment was typed not said, so it's inflection was misinterpreted.

I think hate is the key element here.

[James]

I suppose part of the problem is that body language & facial expressions are such a huge percentage of communication that words alone are much more 'dangerous' in terms of how they can be interpreted.

In case anyone has misunderstood, I'm not "diminishing the effects" of either racism or homophobia. To suggest that is a bit of a cheap shot, in my opinion. Sad that some people are so quick to attack someone when they haven't quite grasped what they are saying.

Reread my posts - I can't be bothered to repeat it all here!

[KalamityKel]

James shhhhhhhh (meant in a nice friendly/cheeky manner) Citz wasn't meaning you in particular just generally (I hope anyway). :)) just breathe thru it and I'll buy ya a beer sometime :)

[citizenED]

James, I have just read a lot of this thread whilst at work and my poor, end-of-the-week brain is not processing properly so sorry if I am someone who has not grasped what you were saying. Just to say repeat that I dislike anything hateful said to anyone. Trouble is that you have invited people to compare these two very nasty phenomena and I'm going to presume that some people will earnestly come out saying that the sum total effect of Racism is worse than the sum total effect of homophobia.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

One of the things I am interested in is the aspect of class and oppression accross all oppressed groups.

When feminists say that women were treated worse than men, they need to look at in context of class. Upper class women were not treated as badly as working class men. Women property owners got the vote a long time before landless men.

In today's society if you are rich enough or climb to the top of whichever greasy pole is yours, you will be accepted amongst the elite if you are female, non-white or gay.

If you are from a working class background you can still make it to the top if you are willing to copy the master, distance youreslf from your roots and be as ruthless as the elite, but if you are poor, no matter what colour/sex/sexuality you are, you will still be looked on as sub-human by the elite but it is deeply unpopular to mention class oppression. Since Mrs Thatcher's defeat of the unions and the working class, the oppression of the poor has gone on unabaited.

Unless we get more people willing to fight for the seemingly undeserving poor and 'chavs' I can't see any end to the oppression of all the oppressed sub-sets within this underclass of our society and of the world.

[clive3300]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't see what is so controversial about this.

> Please expand Muffin, I am interested to know your

> thoughts.

>

> For the reasons I described earlier, far fewer

> black people have broken into the middle and

> upper-middle classes. This is a historical factor.

> Privilege and wealth are entrenched and handed

> down in this country - just as poverty and social

> exclusion is, irrespective of race. The relatively

> small black middle class in Britain show this

> country up for its lack of social mobility in

> general. Put simply, if you're born into poverty

> in Britain you'll probably stay poor, whether

> you're white or black. Sad but true.

>

> Secondly, young black males' lack of role models.

> I think it's really sad that people won't address

> the cultural issues here for fear of being seen as

> un-pc. For as long as we ignore the elephant in

> the drawing room, too many black boys will

> continue to be drawn into a miserable life of

> crime. This is not racist; it is the very opposite

> in fact. We are talking about cultural and

> historical factors here that have their root in

> the evils of colonialism and slavery.

James, what you say seems to make perfect sense to me. However as you are white you may never have any opinions, ask any questions nor in fact talk about black people except to apologise.

Regarding racism and homophobia at school - yes its wrong. However so is kids picking on other kids for being ugly, foreign, short, fat, skinny, ginger, smart or stupid. Kids can be nasty.

[SeanMacGabhann]

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Now is there any need for that, JUST as people were beginning to get along?